[Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

[John W.]

Those of us who feel that we are blessed with a certain moral superiority or
purity run the risk, it seems to me, of falling into the trap illustrated
below.  To wit:

1)  We are by definition the Teachers, Custodians of The Facts;

2)  Those who disagree with our own analysis of The Facts are, by
definition, incapable of "teachable moments"; and

3)  We drive away even those who are inclined to agree with us 90% of the
time.

I have long felt that there is much wisdom to be gleaned from the parable of
the five blind men and the elephant.

John Wason



On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 6:37 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:

Jennifer, it depends what you mean by "teachable moment." Before you can
> have "teachable moments," you have to stop having "dialogue" with those
> racists and oppressors who aren't the least bit interested in being taught
> anything. The "teachable moment" ought to arise from the moral clarity of
> the situation, which is related to a respect for the facts. But you can't do
> that when you're muddying the waters, such as you have done by lending
> credence to the notion that Israel is motivated by "security." So far, lots
> of "teachable moments" have resulted from the clarity that has been created
> by, recently, the attack on Lebanon in 2006, Gaza in 2008-09, and the
> flotilla earlier this year. I'm hoping that it won't take more massive
> criminality to provide more "teachable moments." But if that is to be the
> case, it will have to take some honesty about who is interested in
> listening, and who is not, and some proactive strategies about having a
> movement, rather than just paying lip service and having outside speakers.
> By the way, I don't have much respect for anyone who is "turned off" by
> being told the truth, whether about Israel or its supporters.
>
> DG
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
> *To:* John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 5:15:04 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>
>   David,
> If you were looking for a teachable moment by writing and sending that
> letter to the DI, but instead you've succeeded in turning off even those who
> are [or were] in agreement w/ you about the larger Israeli-Palestinian
> issues, what was the point??
>  --Jenifer
>
> --- On *Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
> To: "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 3:06 PM
>
>  John, I referred to dialogue among those interested in  learning
> something from each other.
>
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
> *To:* David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>; Peace Discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 2:12:11 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:07 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>   The moral distinctions between the roles of Israelis and Palestinians
> are no less clear than those between Nazis and Jews. The results of those
> distinctions have been qualitatively different: expulsion, ethnic cleansing,
> occupation, confinement, etc., accompanied by lots of  murder and attacks on
> other countries (Lebanon, Egypt), with deaths into the tens of thousands,
> probably into the hundreds of thousands at this point. And the goals of
> Zionism are rooted in claims to racial superiority.
>
> Nothing of what Israel does has anything to do with "containment for
> security reasons." Any more than what Germany did in the Warsaw Ghetto.
> That's the drum that the Zionist students were beating last evening. They
> shouldn't be allowed to get away with it--any more than we would allow for
> any other kind of hate, relating to Muslims or gays or any other group,
> based on appeals to fear. Racism is racism, hate is hate, whether or not it
> is couched in assertions of hatred attributed to the hated "other."
>
> What's to be gained by "dialogue"?
>
> DG
>
>
>
> If nothing is to be gained by "dialogue", David, then why do you write your
> letters?  Why did you earlier suggest "teach-ins"?
>
>
>
>
>
>    *From:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; ASA <
> asa.uiuc at gmail.com>; Irfan Ahmad <isahmad at uiuc.edu>; Lina ASA <
> lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>; Sadia Bekal <sbekal at uiuc.edu>; CAIR <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>;
> CAN <can.uiuc at gmail.com>; ISO <iso.champaign at gmail.com>; Aisha Sobh <
> asobh at uiuc.edu>; STOP <trevaellison at gmail.com>; David Green <
> davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 1:56:42 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>
>   David G,
> Yikes! Yes, there is heightened emotion and ramped-up rhetoric on both
> sides -- the occupied population -- "insurrectionists" -- are the good guys
> -- heroes! -- only in reference to 1776 when the colonists were the former,
> opposing British rule... but PLEASE acknowledge that there is a HUGE HUGE
> HUGE difference betw containment out of fear/for security reasons (how ever
> ill-conceived the intent and cruel the result), and extermination of a
> population to destroy a culture and preserve a "master race." You need to
> re-visit that accusation and reword yr letter.
>  --Jenifer
>
> --- On *Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
> To: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>, "ASA" <
> asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Irfan Ahmad" <isahmad at uiuc.edu>, "Lina ASA" <
> lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>, "ASA" <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Sadia Bekal" <
> sbekal at uiuc.edu>, "CAIR" <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>, "CAN" <can.uiuc at gmail.com>,
> "ISO" <iso.champaign at gmail.com>, "Aisha Sobh" <asobh at uiuc.edu>, "STOP" <
> trevaellison at gmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 12:27 PM
>
>   On November 1st, Students for Justice in Palestine hosted a courageous
> young Israeli woman at Noyes Lab who has refused to serve in the Israeli
> occupying army. It was reported at the conclusion of the event that SJP
> received threats that attempted to undermine the event. I would hope that
> these threats would be specified, publicized by the DI, investigated by
> University Police, and addressed by University administration.
>
>
>
> The event was well-attended, including a couple of dozen Zionist students.
> Their questions were straight out of what is called the "hasbara" (Zionist
> propaganda) playbook. These students asserted that Palestinian hatred for
> Israel is so stubborn that nothing that Israel does could possibly do would
> do anything but endanger the safety of Israelis. These assertions were
> competently addressed by the speakers, including a Palestinian student who
> spoke during the question period. The Israeli speaker correctly asserted
> that the Israeli government is the worst terrorist in the Middle East; but
> actually, it would be more correct to say that the U.S. government is the
> worst terrorist in the region.
>
>
>
> For the record, it's important to note that students who support and
> rationalize Israeli atrocities are no different than German youth in the
> 1930s who supported the Nazi Party. Yes, they are young. Yes, they are
> brainwashed. But given the information available, these are not valid
> excuses. These ugly and hateful students show us that in 2010, on the
> "diverse" UI campus, it is still acceptable to support perpetrators and
> blame victims, however obvious that distinction is, with all of the racism
> that that such willful ignorance implies.
>
>
>
> This occurs partly because University administration tacitly equivocates
> between social justice and political evil on issues of war and peace in the
> Middle East. At that level, we all ought to be ashamed of ourselves.
>
>
>
> David Green
>
>
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