[Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
C. G. Estabrook
galliher at illinois.edu
Tue Nov 2 22:04:44 CDT 2010
This is an easy way to avoid the question of how the truth of things stands.
There's of course a good reason to do that: if the truth can be avoided, so can
any obligation to do anything in particular.
On 11/2/10 9:43 PM, John W. wrote:
> Those of us who feel that we are blessed with a certain moral superiority or
> purity run the risk, it seems to me, of falling into the trap illustrated
> below. To wit:
>
> 1) We are by definition the Teachers, Custodians of The Facts;
>
> 2) Those who disagree with our own analysis of The Facts are, by definition,
> incapable of "teachable moments"; and
>
> 3) We drive away even those who are inclined to agree with us 90% of the time.
>
> I have long felt that there is much wisdom to be gleaned from the parable of
> the five blind men and the elephant.
>
> John Wason
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 6:37 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com
> <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> Jennifer, it depends what you mean by "teachable moment." Before you can
> have "teachable moments," you have to stop having "dialogue" with those
> racists and oppressors who aren't the least bit interested in being taught
> anything. The "teachable moment" ought to arise from the moral clarity of
> the situation, which is related to a respect for the facts. But you can't
> do that when you're muddying the waters, such as you have done by lending
> credence to the notion that Israel is motivated by "security." So far,
> lots of "teachable moments" have resulted from the clarity that has been
> created by, recently, the attack on Lebanon in 2006, Gaza in 2008-09, and
> the flotilla earlier this year. I'm hoping that it won't take more massive
> criminality to provide more "teachable moments." But if that is to be the
> case, it will have to take some honesty about who is interested in
> listening, and who is not, and some proactive strategies about having a
> movement, rather than just paying lip service and having outside speakers.
> By the way, I don't have much respect for anyone who is "turned off" by
> being told the truth, whether about Israel or its supporters.
> DG
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com <mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com>>
> *To:* John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com <mailto:jbw292002 at gmail.com>>; David
> Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>>
> *Cc:* Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 5:15:04 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>
> David,
> If you were looking for a teachable moment by writing and sending that
> letter to the DI, but instead you've succeeded in turning off even those
> who are [or were] in agreement w/ you about the larger Israeli-Palestinian
> issues, what was the point??
> --Jenifer
>
> --- On *Tue, 11/2/10, David Green /<davegreen84 at yahoo.com
> <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
> To: "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com <mailto:jbw292002 at gmail.com>>
> Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
> Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 3:06 PM
>
> John, I referred to dialogue among those interested in learning
> something from each other.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com <mailto:jbw292002 at gmail.com>>
> *To:* David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>>
> *Cc:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com
> <mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com>>; Peace Discuss
> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 2:12:11 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:07 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> The moral distinctions between the roles of Israelis and
> Palestinians are no less clear than those between Nazis and Jews.
> The results of those distinctions have been qualitatively
> different: expulsion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, confinement,
> etc., accompanied by lots of murder and attacks on other
> countries (Lebanon, Egypt), with deaths into the tens of
> thousands, probably into the hundreds of thousands at this point.
> And the goals of Zionism are rooted in claims to racial superiority.
> Nothing of what Israel does has anything to do with "containment
> for security reasons." Any more than what Germany did in the
> Warsaw Ghetto. That's the drum that the Zionist students were
> beating last evening. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with
> it--any more than we would allow for any other kind of hate,
> relating to Muslims or gays or any other group, based on appeals
> to fear. Racism is racism, hate is hate, whether or not it is
> couched in assertions of hatred attributed to the hated "other."
> What's to be gained by "dialogue"?
> DG
>
>
>
> If nothing is to be gained by "dialogue", David, then why do you write
> your letters? Why did you earlier suggest "teach-ins"?
>
>
>
> *From:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
> *To:* Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; ASA
> <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>; Irfan Ahmad <isahmad at uiuc.edu>; Lina ASA
> <lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>; Sadia Bekal <sbekal at uiuc.edu>; CAIR
> <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>; CAN <can.uiuc at gmail.com>; ISO
> <iso.champaign at gmail.com>; Aisha Sobh <asobh at uiuc.edu>; STOP
> <trevaellison at gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 1:56:42 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>
> David G,
> Yikes! Yes, there is heightened emotion and ramped-up rhetoric on
> both sides -- the occupied population -- "insurrectionists" -- are
> the good guys -- heroes! -- only in reference to 1776 when the
> colonists were the former, opposing British rule... but PLEASE
> acknowledge that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference betw
> containment out of fear/for security reasons (how ever
> ill-conceived the intent and cruel the result), and extermination
> of a population to destroy a culture and preserve a "master race."
> You need to re-visit that accusation and reword yr letter.
> --Jenifer
>
> --- On *Tue, 11/2/10, David Green /<davegreen84 at yahoo.com>/* wrote:
>
>
> From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
> To: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>, "ASA"
> <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Irfan Ahmad" <isahmad at uiuc.edu>, "Lina
> ASA" <lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>, "ASA" <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Sadia
> Bekal" <sbekal at uiuc.edu>, "CAIR" <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>, "CAN"
> <can.uiuc at gmail.com>, "ISO" <iso.champaign at gmail.com>, "Aisha
> Sobh" <asobh at uiuc.edu>, "STOP" <trevaellison at gmail.com>
> Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 12:27 PM
>
> On November 1st, Students for Justice in Palestine hosted a
> courageous young Israeli woman at Noyes Lab who has refused to
> serve in the Israeli occupying army. It was reported at the
> conclusion of the event that SJP received threats that
> attempted to undermine the event. I would hope that these
> threats would be specified, publicized by the DI, investigated
> by University Police, and addressed by University administration.
>
> The event was well-attended, including a couple of dozen
> Zionist students. Their questions were straight out of what is
> called the "hasbara" (Zionist propaganda) playbook. These
> students asserted that Palestinian hatred for Israel is so
> stubborn that nothing that Israel does could possibly do would
> do anything but endanger the safety of Israelis. These
> assertions were competently addressed by the speakers,
> including a Palestinian student who spoke during the question
> period. The Israeli speaker correctly asserted that the
> Israeli government is the worst terrorist in the Middle East;
> but actually, it would be more correct to say that the U.S.
> government is the worst terrorist in the region.
>
> For the record, it's important to note that students who
> support and rationalize Israeli atrocities are no different
> than German youth in the 1930s who supported the Nazi Party.
> Yes, they are young. Yes, they are brainwashed. But given the
> information available, these are not valid excuses. These ugly
> and hateful students show us that in 2010, on the "diverse" UI
> campus, it is still acceptable to support perpetrators and
> blame victims, however obvious that distinction is, with all
> of the racism that that such willful ignorance implies.
>
> This occurs partly because University administration tacitly
> equivocates between social justice and political evil on
> issues of war and peace in the Middle East. At that level, we
> all ought to be ashamed of ourselves.
>
> David Green
>
>
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