[Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

Tue Nov 2 22:12:00 CDT 2010

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:04 PM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>wrote:

 This is an easy way to avoid the question of how the truth of things
> stands.
>

It's never easy, Carl, to listen deeply to the truth possessed by other
people, particularly when you're so profoundly convinced of your own moral
correctness.

> There's of course a good reason to do that: if the truth can be avoided, so
> can any obligation to do anything in particular.
>

I sincerely hope that you're too intelligent to fall into the trap of
conflating escapism, or avoidance behavior, with the humility required to
acknowledge that you don't necessarily have a corner on all truth.

> On 11/2/10 9:43 PM, John W. wrote:
>
> Those of us who feel that we are blessed with a certain moral superiority
> or purity run the risk, it seems to me, of falling into the trap illustrated
> below.  To wit:
>
>  1)  We are by definition the Teachers, Custodians of The Facts;
>
>  2)  Those who disagree with our own analysis of The Facts are, by
> definition, incapable of "teachable moments"; and
>
>  3)  We drive away even those who are inclined to agree with us 90% of the
> time.
>
>  I have long felt that there is much wisdom to be gleaned from the parable
> of the five blind men and the elephant.
>
>  John Wason
>
>
>
>  On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 6:37 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>   Jennifer, it depends what you mean by "teachable moment." Before you can
>> have "teachable moments," you have to stop having "dialogue" with those
>> racists and oppressors who aren't the least bit interested in being taught
>> anything. The "teachable moment" ought to arise from the moral clarity of
>> the situation, which is related to a respect for the facts. But you can't do
>> that when you're muddying the waters, such as you have done by lending
>> credence to the notion that Israel is motivated by "security." So far, lots
>> of "teachable moments" have resulted from the clarity that has been created
>> by, recently, the attack on Lebanon in 2006, Gaza in 2008-09, and the
>> flotilla earlier this year. I'm hoping that it won't take more massive
>> criminality to provide more "teachable moments." But if that is to be the
>> case, it will have to take some honesty about who is interested in
>> listening, and who is not, and some proactive strategies about having a
>> movement, rather than just paying lip service and having outside speakers.
>> By the way, I don't have much respect for anyone who is "turned off" by
>> being told the truth, whether about Israel or its supporters.
>>
>> DG
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>  *From:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>>  *To:* John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>> *Cc:* Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 5:15:04 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>
>>   David,
>> If you were looking for a teachable moment by writing and sending that
>> letter to the DI, but instead you've succeeded in turning off even those who
>> are [or were] in agreement w/ you about the larger Israeli-Palestinian
>> issues, what was the point??
>>  --Jenifer
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>> To: "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
>> Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 3:06 PM
>>
>>  John, I referred to dialogue among those interested in  learning
>> something from each other.
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> *From:* John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
>> *To:* David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>> *Cc:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>; Peace Discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 2:12:11 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:07 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>wrote:
>>
>>   The moral distinctions between the roles of Israelis and Palestinians
>> are no less clear than those between Nazis and Jews. The results of those
>> distinctions have been qualitatively different: expulsion, ethnic cleansing,
>> occupation, confinement, etc., accompanied by lots of  murder and attacks on
>> other countries (Lebanon, Egypt), with deaths into the tens of thousands,
>> probably into the hundreds of thousands at this point. And the goals of
>> Zionism are rooted in claims to racial superiority.
>>
>> Nothing of what Israel does has anything to do with "containment for
>> security reasons." Any more than what Germany did in the Warsaw Ghetto.
>> That's the drum that the Zionist students were beating last evening. They
>> shouldn't be allowed to get away with it--any more than we would allow for
>> any other kind of hate, relating to Muslims or gays or any other group,
>> based on appeals to fear. Racism is racism, hate is hate, whether or not it
>> is couched in assertions of hatred attributed to the hated "other."
>>
>> What's to be gained by "dialogue"?
>>
>>  DG
>>
>>
>>
>>  If nothing is to be gained by "dialogue", David, then why do you write
>> your letters?  Why did you earlier suggest "teach-ins"?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    *From:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>> *To:* Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; ASA <
>> asa.uiuc at gmail.com>; Irfan Ahmad <isahmad at uiuc.edu>; Lina ASA <
>> lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>; Sadia Bekal <sbekal at uiuc.edu>; CAIR <
>> hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>; CAN <can.uiuc at gmail.com>; ISO <
>> iso.champaign at gmail.com>; Aisha Sobh <asobh at uiuc.edu>; STOP <
>> trevaellison at gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 1:56:42 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>
>>   David G,
>> Yikes! Yes, there is heightened emotion and ramped-up rhetoric on both
>> sides -- the occupied population -- "insurrectionists" -- are the good guys
>> -- heroes! -- only in reference to 1776 when the colonists were the former,
>> opposing British rule... but PLEASE acknowledge that there is a HUGE HUGE
>> HUGE difference betw containment out of fear/for security reasons (how ever
>> ill-conceived the intent and cruel the result), and extermination of a
>> population to destroy a culture and preserve a "master race." You need to
>> re-visit that accusation and reword yr letter.
>>  --Jenifer
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>> To: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>, "ASA" <
>> asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Irfan Ahmad" <isahmad at uiuc.edu>, "Lina ASA" <
>> lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>, "ASA" <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Sadia Bekal" <
>> sbekal at uiuc.edu>, "CAIR" <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>, "CAN" <can.uiuc at gmail.com>,
>> "ISO" <iso.champaign at gmail.com>, "Aisha Sobh" <asobh at uiuc.edu>, "STOP" <
>> trevaellison at gmail.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 12:27 PM
>>
>>   On November 1st, Students for Justice in Palestine hosted a courageous
>> young Israeli woman at Noyes Lab who has refused to serve in the Israeli
>> occupying army. It was reported at the conclusion of the event that SJP
>> received threats that attempted to undermine the event. I would hope that
>> these threats would be specified, publicized by the DI, investigated by
>> University Police, and addressed by University administration.
>>
>>
>>
>> The event was well-attended, including a couple of dozen Zionist students.
>> Their questions were straight out of what is called the "hasbara" (Zionist
>> propaganda) playbook. These students asserted that Palestinian hatred for
>> Israel is so stubborn that nothing that Israel does could possibly do would
>> do anything but endanger the safety of Israelis. These assertions were
>> competently addressed by the speakers, including a Palestinian student who
>> spoke during the question period. The Israeli speaker correctly asserted
>> that the Israeli government is the worst terrorist in the Middle East; but
>> actually, it would be more correct to say that the U.S. government is the
>> worst terrorist in the region.
>>
>>
>>
>> For the record, it's important to note that students who support and
>> rationalize Israeli atrocities are no different than German youth in the
>> 1930s who supported the Nazi Party. Yes, they are young. Yes, they are
>> brainwashed. But given the information available, these are not valid
>> excuses. These ugly and hateful students show us that in 2010, on the
>> "diverse" UI campus, it is still acceptable to support perpetrators and
>> blame victims, however obvious that distinction is, with all of the racism
>> that that such willful ignorance implies.
>>
>>
>>
>> This occurs partly because University administration tacitly equivocates
>> between social justice and political evil on issues of war and peace in the
>> Middle East. At that level, we all ought to be ashamed of ourselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> David Green
>>
>>
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