[Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
C. G. Estabrook
galliher at illinois.edu
Tue Nov 2 22:23:06 CDT 2010
[1] I take it your first sentence is a humble confession of your situation,
John. It seems to have no bearing on the point David raises otherwise.
[2] Can "escapism, or avoidance behavior" masquerade as "acknowledg[ing] that
[one doesn't] necessarily have a corner on all truth"?
On 11/2/10 10:12 PM, John W. wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 10:04 PM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu
> <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>
> This is an easy way to avoid the question of how the truth of things stands.
>
>
> It's never easy, Carl, to listen deeply to the truth possessed by other
> people, particularly when you're so profoundly convinced of your own moral
> correctness.
>
> There's of course a good reason to do that: if the truth can be avoided,
> so can any obligation to do anything in particular.
>
>
> I sincerely hope that you're too intelligent to fall into the trap of
> conflating escapism, or avoidance behavior, with the humility required to
> acknowledge that you don't necessarily have a corner on all truth.
>
>
> On 11/2/10 9:43 PM, John W. wrote:
>> Those of us who feel that we are blessed with a certain moral superiority
>> or purity run the risk, it seems to me, of falling into the trap
>> illustrated below. To wit:
>>
>> 1) We are by definition the Teachers, Custodians of The Facts;
>>
>> 2) Those who disagree with our own analysis of The Facts are, by
>> definition, incapable of "teachable moments"; and
>>
>> 3) We drive away even those who are inclined to agree with us 90% of the
>> time.
>>
>> I have long felt that there is much wisdom to be gleaned from the parable
>> of the five blind men and the elephant.
>>
>> John Wason
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 6:37 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Jennifer, it depends what you mean by "teachable moment." Before you
>> can have "teachable moments," you have to stop having "dialogue" with
>> those racists and oppressors who aren't the least bit interested in
>> being taught anything. The "teachable moment" ought to arise from the
>> moral clarity of the situation, which is related to a respect for the
>> facts. But you can't do that when you're muddying the waters, such as
>> you have done by lending credence to the notion that Israel is
>> motivated by "security." So far, lots of "teachable moments" have
>> resulted from the clarity that has been created by, recently, the
>> attack on Lebanon in 2006, Gaza in 2008-09, and the flotilla earlier
>> this year. I'm hoping that it won't take more massive criminality to
>> provide more "teachable moments." But if that is to be the case, it
>> will have to take some honesty about who is interested in listening,
>> and who is not, and some proactive strategies about having a
>> movement, rather than just paying lip service and having outside
>> speakers. By the way, I don't have much respect for anyone who is
>> "turned off" by being told the truth, whether about Israel or its
>> supporters.
>> DG
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com>>
>> *To:* John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com <mailto:jbw292002 at gmail.com>>;
>> David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>>
>> *Cc:* Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
>> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 5:15:04 PM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>
>> David,
>> If you were looking for a teachable moment by writing and sending
>> that letter to the DI, but instead you've succeeded in turning off
>> even those who are [or were] in agreement w/ you about the larger
>> Israeli-Palestinian issues, what was the point??
>> --Jenifer
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 11/2/10, David Green /<davegreen84 at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>>/* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>>
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>> To: "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com <mailto:jbw292002 at gmail.com>>
>> Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
>> Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 3:06 PM
>>
>> John, I referred to dialogue among those interested in learning
>> something from each other.
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com <mailto:jbw292002 at gmail.com>>
>> *To:* David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>>
>> *Cc:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com
>> <mailto:jencart13 at yahoo.com>>; Peace Discuss
>> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>
>> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 2:12:11 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:07 PM, David Green
>> <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> The moral distinctions between the roles of Israelis and
>> Palestinians are no less clear than those between Nazis and
>> Jews. The results of those distinctions have been
>> qualitatively different: expulsion, ethnic cleansing,
>> occupation, confinement, etc., accompanied by lots of murder
>> and attacks on other countries (Lebanon, Egypt), with deaths
>> into the tens of thousands, probably into the hundreds of
>> thousands at this point. And the goals of Zionism are rooted
>> in claims to racial superiority.
>> Nothing of what Israel does has anything to do with
>> "containment for security reasons." Any more than what
>> Germany did in the Warsaw Ghetto. That's the drum that the
>> Zionist students were beating last evening. They shouldn't be
>> allowed to get away with it--any more than we would allow for
>> any other kind of hate, relating to Muslims or gays or any
>> other group, based on appeals to fear. Racism is racism, hate
>> is hate, whether or not it is couched in assertions of hatred
>> attributed to the hated "other."
>> What's to be gained by "dialogue"?
>> DG
>>
>>
>>
>> If nothing is to be gained by "dialogue", David, then why do you
>> write your letters? Why did you earlier suggest "teach-ins"?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>> *To:* Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; ASA
>> <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>; Irfan Ahmad <isahmad at uiuc.edu>; Lina
>> ASA <lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>; Sadia Bekal <sbekal at uiuc.edu>; CAIR
>> <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>; CAN <can.uiuc at gmail.com>; ISO
>> <iso.champaign at gmail.com>; Aisha Sobh <asobh at uiuc.edu>; STOP
>> <trevaellison at gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>> *Sent:* Tue, November 2, 2010 1:56:42 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>
>> David G,
>> Yikes! Yes, there is heightened emotion and ramped-up
>> rhetoric on both sides -- the occupied population --
>> "insurrectionists" -- are the good guys -- heroes! -- only in
>> reference to 1776 when the colonists were the former,
>> opposing British rule... but PLEASE acknowledge that there is
>> a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference betw containment out of fear/for
>> security reasons (how ever ill-conceived the intent and cruel
>> the result), and extermination of a population to destroy a
>> culture and preserve a "master race." You need to re-visit
>> that accusation and reword yr letter.
>> --Jenifer
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 11/2/10, David Green /<davegreen84 at yahoo.com>/*
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>> To: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>,
>> "ASA" <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Irfan Ahmad"
>> <isahmad at uiuc.edu>, "Lina ASA" <lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>, "ASA"
>> <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Sadia Bekal" <sbekal at uiuc.edu>,
>> "CAIR" <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>, "CAN" <can.uiuc at gmail.com>,
>> "ISO" <iso.champaign at gmail.com>, "Aisha Sobh"
>> <asobh at uiuc.edu>, "STOP" <trevaellison at gmail.com>
>> Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 12:27 PM
>>
>> On November 1st, Students for Justice in Palestine hosted
>> a courageous young Israeli woman at Noyes Lab who has
>> refused to serve in the Israeli occupying army. It was
>> reported at the conclusion of the event that SJP received
>> threats that attempted to undermine the event. I would
>> hope that these threats would be specified, publicized by
>> the DI, investigated by University Police, and addressed
>> by University administration.
>>
>> The event was well-attended, including a couple of dozen
>> Zionist students. Their questions were straight out of
>> what is called the "hasbara" (Zionist propaganda)
>> playbook. These students asserted that Palestinian hatred
>> for Israel is so stubborn that nothing that Israel does
>> could possibly do would do anything but endanger the
>> safety of Israelis. These assertions were competently
>> addressed by the speakers, including a Palestinian
>> student who spoke during the question period. The Israeli
>> speaker correctly asserted that the Israeli government is
>> the worst terrorist in the Middle East; but actually, it
>> would be more correct to say that the U.S. government is
>> the worst terrorist in the region.
>>
>> For the record, it's important to note that students who
>> support and rationalize Israeli atrocities are no
>> different than German youth in the 1930s who supported
>> the Nazi Party. Yes, they are young. Yes, they are
>> brainwashed. But given the information available, these
>> are not valid excuses. These ugly and hateful students
>> show us that in 2010, on the "diverse" UI campus, it is
>> still acceptable to support perpetrators and blame
>> victims, however obvious that distinction is, with all of
>> the racism that that such willful ignorance implies.
>>
>> This occurs partly because University administration
>> tacitly equivocates between social justice and political
>> evil on issues of war and peace in the Middle East. At
>> that level, we all ought to be ashamed of ourselves.
>>
>> David Green
>>
>>
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>
>
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