[Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

Wed Nov 3 08:41:46 CDT 2010

With modesty and humility, as well as skepticism and curiosity, one ought to 
examine the facts, do one's homework, and allow for any possibility whatsoever 
that one's understanding can be wildly wrong. Given all of that, one has to call 
a spade a spade. Instead, we continue to be asked to entertain the possibility 
that what looks like shit, smells like shit, and taste like shit, might somehow 
turn out to be shinola, or perhaps there is some shinola mixed in with the shit, 
somehow redeeming the shit, or presenting the possibility that the shit might 
indeed begin to smell like roses. At that point, one is talking about a failure 
to accept the implications of what is true, beyond a reasonable doubt. At that 
point, what is the point of making an effort to discover what is true, and the 
difference between right and wrong. 

DG

________________________________
From: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
To: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Cc: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>; Peace Discuss 
<peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:43:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

Those of us who feel that we are blessed with a certain moral superiority or 
purity run the risk, it seems to me, of falling into the trap illustrated below. 
 To wit: 

1)  We are by definition the Teachers, Custodians of The Facts;

2)  Those who disagree with our own analysis of The Facts are, by definition, 
incapable of "teachable moments"; and 

3)  We drive away even those who are inclined to agree with us 90% of the time.

I have long felt that there is much wisdom to be gleaned from the parable of the 
five blind men and the elephant.

John Wason

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 6:37 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:

Jennifer, it depends what you mean by "teachable moment." Before you can have 
"teachable moments," you have to stop having "dialogue" with those racists and 
oppressors who aren't the least bit interested in being taught anything. The 
"teachable moment" ought to arise from the moral clarity of the situation, which 
is related to a respect for the facts. But you can't do that when you're 
muddying the waters, such as you have done by lending credence to the notion 
that Israel is motivated by "security." So far, lots of "teachable moments" have 
resulted from the clarity that has been created by, recently, the attack on 
Lebanon in 2006, Gaza in 2008-09, and the flotilla earlier this year. I'm hoping 
that it won't take more massive criminality to provide more "teachable moments." 
But if that is to be the case, it will have to take some honesty about who is 
interested in listening, and who is not, and some proactive strategies about 
having a movement, rather than just paying lip service and having outside 
speakers. By the way, I don't have much respect for anyone who is "turned off" 
by being told the truth, whether about Israel or its supporters.
>
>DG
>
>
>
>
________________________________

>From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>To: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 5:15:04 PM 
>
>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>
>
>
>David, 
>If you were looking for a teachable moment by writing and sending that letter to 
>the DI, but instead you've succeeded in turning off even those who are [or were] 
>in agreement w/ you about the larger Israeli-Palestinian issues, what was the 
>point?? 
> --Jenifer
>
>--- On Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>To: "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
>>Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 3:06 PM
>>
>>
>>John, I referred to dialogue among those interested in  learning something from 
>>each other.
>>
>>
>>
>>
________________________________
From: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
>>To: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>>Cc: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>; Peace Discuss 
>><peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 2:12:11 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>
>>
>>
>>On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:07 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>The moral distinctions between the roles of Israelis and Palestinians are no 
>>less clear than those between Nazis and Jews. The results of those distinctions 
>>have been qualitatively different: expulsion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, 
>>confinement, etc., accompanied by lots of  murder and attacks on other countries 
>>(Lebanon, Egypt), with deaths into the tens of thousands, probably into the 
>>hundreds of thousands at this point. And the goals of Zionism are rooted in 
>>claims to racial superiority. 
>>
>>>
>>>Nothing of what Israel does has anything to do with "containment for security 
>>>reasons." Any more than what Germany did in the Warsaw Ghetto. That's the drum 
>>>that the Zionist students were beating last evening. They shouldn't be allowed 
>>>to get away with it--any more than we would allow for any other kind of hate, 
>>>relating to Muslims or gays or any other group, based on appeals to fear. Racism 
>>>is racism, hate is hate, whether or not it is couched in assertions of hatred 
>>>attributed to the hated "other."
>>>
>>>What's to be gained by "dialogue"?
>>>DG
>>>
>
>
>
>
>If nothing is to be gained by "dialogue", David, then why do you write your 
>letters?  Why did you earlier suggest "teach-ins"?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>>To: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; ASA <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>; 
>>Irfan Ahmad <isahmad at uiuc.edu>; Lina ASA <lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>; Sadia Bekal 
>><sbekal at uiuc.edu>; CAIR <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>; CAN <can.uiuc at gmail.com>; ISO 
>><iso.champaign at gmail.com>; Aisha Sobh <asobh at uiuc.edu>; STOP 
>><trevaellison at gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>>Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 1:56:42 PM
>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>
>>
>>
>>David G, 
>>Yikes! Yes, there is heightened emotion and ramped-up rhetoric on both sides -- 
>>the occupied population -- "insurrectionists" -- are the good guys -- heroes! -- 
>>only in reference to 1776 when the colonists were the former, opposing British 
>>rule... but PLEASE acknowledge that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference betw 
>>containment out of fear/for security reasons (how ever ill-conceived the intent 
>>and cruel the result), and extermination of a population to destroy a culture 
>>and preserve a "master race." You need to re-visit that accusation and reword yr 
>>letter.
>> --Jenifer   
>>
>>--- On Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
>>>Subject: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
>>>To: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>, "ASA" 
>>><asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Irfan Ahmad" <isahmad at uiuc.edu>, "Lina ASA" 
>>><lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>, "ASA" <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Sadia Bekal" 
>>><sbekal at uiuc.edu>, "CAIR" <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>, "CAN" <can.uiuc at gmail.com>, "ISO" 
>>><iso.champaign at gmail.com>, "Aisha Sobh" <asobh at uiuc.edu>, "STOP" 
>>><trevaellison at gmail.com>
>>>Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 12:27 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>On November 1st, Students for Justice in Palestine hosted a courageous young 
>>>Israeli woman at Noyes Lab who has refused to serve in the Israeli occupying 
>>>army. It was reported at the conclusion of the event that SJP received threats 
>>>that attempted to undermine the event. I would hope that these threats would be 
>>>specified, publicized by the DI, investigated by University Police, and 
>>>addressed by University administration.
>>> 
>>>The event was well-attended, including a couple of dozen Zionist students. Their 
>>>questions were straight out of what is called the "hasbara" (Zionist propaganda) 
>>>playbook. These students asserted that Palestinian hatred for Israel is so 
>>>stubborn that nothing that Israel does could possibly do would do anything but 
>>>endanger the safety of Israelis. These assertions were competently addressed by 
>>>the speakers, including a Palestinian student who spoke during the question 
>>>period. The Israeli speaker correctly asserted that the Israeli government is 
>>>the worst terrorist in the Middle East; but actually, it would be more correct 
>>>to say that the U.S. government is the worst terrorist in the region.
>>> 
>>>For the record, it's important to note that students who support and rationalize 
>>>Israeli atrocities are no different than German youth in the 1930s who supported 
>>>the Nazi Party. Yes, they are young. Yes, they are brainwashed. But given the 
>>>information available, these are not valid excuses. These ugly and hateful 
>>>students show us that in 2010, on the "diverse" UI campus, it is still 
>>>acceptable to support perpetrators and blame victims, however obvious that 
>>>distinction is, with all of the racism that that such willful ignorance implies. 
>>>
>>> 
>>>This occurs partly because University administration tacitly equivocates between 
>>>social justice and political evil on issues of war and peace in the Middle East. 
>>>At that level, we all ought to be ashamed of ourselves.
>>> 
>>>David Green  

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