[Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

Wed Nov 3 19:10:30 CDT 2010

My point is, YET AGAIN, that NEITHER the Americans NOR the Israelis are acting like Nazis, not even close.We're done here, or at least I am.  --Jenifer 

--- On Wed, 11/3/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
To: "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 3:34 PM

Jenifer,

The point is exactly that we don't have the "moral high ground," that we have to take actions to achieve it, primarily relating to our own government's policies. I'm not asking you to take the "moral high ground" in relation to another country, as if we have to establish some kind of essential, fundamental innocence in order to be permitted to legitimately criticize others. That's just childish. We don't need to proclaim ourselves morally superior on the basis of our history, which clearly is impossible. I'm asking us to take the "moral high ground" in relation to identifying, naming, and acting in relation to U.S. foreign policy at the present time, for which we are responsible.

Jenifer, you're grossly misunderstanding the problem (not Israel, rather the U.S.), and then using that as a way to avoid challenging either.

The "moral high ground" is for those who recognize genocide when they see it, most of all when their country is responsible for it (Native Americans, Philippines, East Timor, Guatemala, Iraq, Vietnam, etc.), and therefore want to do something about it that is relevant to the current situation for which all of us are responsible. The U.S. is responsible and accountable for Israel's ongoing genocide against the Palestinian people, especially those in Gaza who are being systematically malnourished as children. So what does that make us if we don't try to stop it--say, in comparison to Germans in the 1930s and 40s? How systematic does an occupation and its consequences have to become before we (1) recognize it as a genocide and (2) do something to stop it?

If you're not comfortable saying that Israelis are behaving like Nazis, perhaps you'd be more comfortable saying that Americans are behaving like Nazis. Or you tell me, what is your personal favorite label for those who silently collaborate with political evil?

DG

From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
To: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 2:46:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

Israel has a lot to answer for, past and present, no argument there. But it's hard for me to take the moral high ground when the US has- and continues to do the same. Their/our country's sins are mounting for sure, but we're not looking at Auschwitz and systematic extermination of 6m. I would suggest rethinking the issue as well as rephrasing yr tho'ts. 
 --Jenifer (still only one "n")

--- On Wed, 11/3/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
To: "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Date: Wednesday, November 3, 2010, 8:50 AM

Jennifer,

From 1947-1949, the pre-state and state of Israel forcefully and planfully expelled over 700,000 Palestinians from their homes; 300,000 were expelled prior to the "invasion of 5 Arab armies" after May 1948. These things are well-documented by now; but because it's Jews that perpetrated these crimes and those crimes are in accordance with good "western" American justifications for genocide, they are excused. It was a kind of genocide, that destroyed forever a civilization. We need to connect the genocides, not excuse some while condemning others. More important, we need to condemn the ones that were done in our name. And again, Israeli Jews now see themselves as a kind of "master race," in fact and deed if not in explicit words (although there's plenty of words, too). 

So I truly don't understand what you're saying. But if it would help not to call people who behave like Nazis Nazis, I'm all for it. How do you think it will help?

DG

From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
To: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 10:14:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

David,  
I did not say Israel's behavior twds the Palestinians was "security" -- that parallel might be more like the US and Native Americans. My full quote [referring to young Israeli Zionists vs Hitler Youth] was: 
PLEASE acknowledge that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference betw containment out of fear/for security reasons (however ill-conceived the intent and cruel the result), and extermination of a population to destroy a culture and preserve a "master race."
I'll also repeat my last sentence -- it's more truthful, and it also speaks to the flies/honey teachable moment thing: 
You need to re-visit that accusation and reword yr letter.
 --Jenifer
PS I also corrected yr spelling of my name :-)

--- On Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
To: "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 6:37 PM

Jenifer, it depends what you mean by "teachable moment." Before you can have "teachable moments," you have to stop having "dialogue" with those racists and oppressors who aren't the least bit interested in being taught anything. The "teachable moment" ought to arise from the moral clarity of the situation, which is related to a respect for the facts. But you can't do that when you're muddying the waters, such as you have done by lending credence to the notion that Israel is motivated by "security." So far, lots of "teachable moments" have resulted from the clarity that has been created by, recently, the attack on Lebanon in 2006, Gaza in 2008-09, and the flotilla earlier this year. I'm hoping that it won't take more massive criminality to provide more "teachable moments." But if that is to be the case, it will have to take some honesty about who is interested in listening, and who is not, and some proactive strategies about having a movement,
 rather than just paying lip service and having outside speakers. By the way, I don't have much respect for anyone who is "turned off" by being told the truth, whether about Israel or its supporters.

DG

From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
To: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Cc: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 5:15:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

David, 
If you were looking for a teachable moment by writing and sending that letter to the DI, but instead you've succeeded in turning off even those who are [or were] in agreement w/ you about the larger Israeli-Palestinian issues, what was the point?? 
 --Jenifer

--- On Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
To: "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
Cc: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 3:06 PM

John, I referred to dialogue among those interested in  learning something from each other.

From: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
To: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Cc: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>; Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 2:12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 2:07 PM, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:

The moral distinctions between the roles of Israelis and Palestinians are no less clear than those between Nazis and Jews. The results of those distinctions have been qualitatively different: expulsion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, confinement, etc., accompanied by lots of  murder and attacks on other countries (Lebanon, Egypt), with deaths into the tens of thousands, probably into the hundreds of thousands at this point. And the goals of Zionism are rooted in claims to racial superiority. 

Nothing of what Israel does has anything to do with "containment for security reasons." Any more than what Germany did in the Warsaw Ghetto. That's the drum that the Zionist students were beating last evening. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with it--any more than we would allow for any other kind of hate, relating to Muslims or gays or any other group, based on appeals to fear. Racism is racism, hate is hate, whether or not it is couched in assertions of hatred attributed to the hated "other."

What's to be gained by "dialogue"?

DG

If nothing is to be gained by "dialogue", David, then why do you write your letters?  Why did you earlier suggest "teach-ins"?

From: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
To: Peace Discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; ASA <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>; Irfan Ahmad <isahmad at uiuc.edu>; Lina ASA <lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>; Sadia Bekal <sbekal at uiuc.edu>; CAIR <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>; CAN <can.uiuc at gmail.com>; ISO <iso.champaign at gmail.com>; Aisha Sobh <asobh at uiuc.edu>; STOP <trevaellison at gmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 1:56:42
 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI

David G, 
Yikes! Yes, there is heightened emotion and ramped-up rhetoric on both sides -- the occupied population -- "insurrectionists" -- are the good guys -- heroes! -- only in reference to 1776 when the colonists were the former, opposing British rule... but PLEASE acknowledge that there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference betw containment out of fear/for security reasons (how ever ill-conceived the intent and cruel the result), and extermination of a population to destroy a culture and preserve a "master race." You need to re-visit that accusation and reword yr letter.
 --Jenifer   

--- On Tue, 11/2/10, David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Letter submitted to DI
To: "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>, "ASA" <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Irfan Ahmad" <isahmad at uiuc.edu>, "Lina ASA" <lelbesh2 at uiuc.edu>, "ASA" <asa.uiuc at gmail.com>, "Sadia Bekal" <sbekal at uiuc.edu>, "CAIR" <hrahman2 at uiuc.edu>, "CAN" <can.uiuc at gmail.com>, "ISO" <iso.champaign at gmail.com>, "Aisha Sobh" <asobh at uiuc.edu>, "STOP" <trevaellison at gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 2, 2010, 12:27 PM

On November 1st, Students for Justice in Palestine hosted a courageous young Israeli woman at Noyes Lab who has refused to serve in the Israeli occupying army. It was reported at the conclusion of the event that SJP received threats that attempted to undermine the event. I would hope that these threats would be specified, publicized by the DI, investigated by University Police, and addressed by University administration.

The event was well-attended, including a couple of dozen Zionist students. Their questions were straight out of what is called the "hasbara" (Zionist propaganda) playbook. These students asserted that Palestinian hatred for Israel is so stubborn that nothing that Israel does could possibly do would do anything but endanger the safety of Israelis. These assertions were competently addressed by the speakers, including a Palestinian student who spoke during the question period. The Israeli speaker correctly asserted that the Israeli government is the worst terrorist in the Middle East; but actually, it would be more correct to say that the U.S. government is the worst terrorist in the region.

For the record, it's important to note that students who support and rationalize Israeli atrocities are no different than German youth in the 1930s who supported the Nazi Party. Yes, they are young. Yes, they are brainwashed. But given the information available, these are not valid excuses. These ugly and hateful students show us that in 2010, on the "diverse" UI campus, it is still acceptable to support perpetrators and blame victims, however obvious that distinction is, with all of the racism that that such willful ignorance implies. 

This occurs partly because University administration tacitly equivocates between social justice and political evil on issues of war and peace in the Middle East. At that level, we all ought to be ashamed of ourselves.

David Green

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