[Peace-discuss] Tim Johnson / killing people

Sun Oct 17 16:49:46 CDT 2010

Again you keep bringing the discussion around to focusing on your focal 
single issue, which I guess I should not be surprised by; unfortunately, the 
net result is that the discussion keeps going around in circles, neither 
expanding nor getting anywhere substantively.  Moreover, and of equal 
significance, is the fact that your blinders have restricted the topic of 
discussion to a historically specific instance or set of instances, except 
when you want to pull illustrative comparisons or supportive examples fro 
different specific historical instances.  Why are we focusing on de-railing 
this specific war or set of conflicts rather than focusing on de-railing 
wars and conflicts as well as the policies and practices which enable and 
produce them in general independent of any specific instances.

 Why not demand of Gill and Johnson and other candidates for public office 
at all levels of government that they commit not supporting and opposing any 
legislation that supports or funds acts of war, conflict, police actions, 
etc. direct or indirect, overt and covert, by the U.S and its agencies or by 
other countries or third party contractors.  Why not demand that they commit 
to supporting sanctions and punishments against those who violate 
international laws, and domestic laws prohibiting participation in such 
actions  and funding in terms of removal from office (elected, appointed, or 
civil service) and the possibility of holding any public office -elected, 
appointed, or civil service - for the rest of their lives, loss of any 
governmental benefits acquired in the past, present, or future of their 
lives,  long jail terms of ten or more years for each count to run serially 
without possibility of probation, parole, pardon, or early release, and 
monetary fines equal to twice the total amount earned while working for any 
level of government during the course of their lifetime plus interest as a 
penalty in addition to damages equal to the penalty.  With respect to 
foreign governments and third party contractors, why not get their 
commitment to support laws that punish them should the engage in said 
behaviors by stopping all funding and governmental sales or contracts with 
them or to other countries or organizations that support of fund them while 
receiving funding and support from the U.S. for a period of 15 years 
Moreover, why not get candidates to commit to their commitments under 
penalty of being removed from office until they receive a trial and 
permanently from any future office (elected, appointed, or civil service) if 
they are found to have violated their commitments to the public or campaign 
pledges.

Extreme proposals yes; but you get my point.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 3:42 PM
To: "Laurie Solomon" <ls1000 at live.com>
Cc: <Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; "Karen Medina" <kmedina67 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tim Johnson / killing people

>  The only way we're going to de-rail this war - not a mistake but a crime 
> consistent with ongoing US policy - is by getting Congress to vote against 
> funding it, as in Vietnam and Nicaragua.  That means voting for people who 
> vote against funding.
>
>
> On 10/17/10 2:46 PM, Laurie Solomon wrote:
>> Of course Carl, that is bullshit.  His soul just as Gill's intentions are 
>> precisely what is at issue since one's voting decision is really about 
>> trust in the candidate and the candidates judgment and long range overall 
>> intentions.  What a person does in terms of actions may be taken as an 
>> indication of of their general beliefs and intentions, morality, honesty, 
>> and trustworthiness in general only if their actions are of proven 
>> consistence over a relatively long period and not fleeting opportunistic 
>> pragmatic expressions based on the prevailing winds of the moment.
>>
>> Unlike the mass marketed notion of representation which would have it as 
>> a opinion poll driven popularity contest in which the representative 
>> follows the demands of his constituency as necessary for political 
>> expediency, the voter in reality can only participate under Edmund 
>> Burke's notion of representation in which representation is not actual 
>> but virtual; wherein the voter selects someone to virtually represent 
>> them base on the voter's perception and expectations of a candidate's 
>> general beliefs, good judgment, morality, honesty, trustworthiness and 
>> intentions (e.g., the candidate's general soul which underlies any overt 
>> and specific actions, decisions, or judgments they may make over the long 
>> run with consistency).
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu>
>> Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 2:10 PM
>> To: "Karen Medina" <kmedina67 at gmail.com>
>> Cc: <Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Tim Johnson / killing people
>>
>>>  The state of Tim Johnson's soul is not at issue.
>>>
>>> His vote against the war (and David Gill's lack of same) is.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10/17/10 11:47 AM, Karen Medina wrote:
>>>>> Killing people is the most important thing the Obama administration is
>>>>> doing.
>>>> For many years, Tim Johnson had no problem with killing people in
>>>> Iraq, Afghanistan, ...
>>>> Tim Johnson STILL has no problem with the United States support of
>>>> Israel killing people.
>>>>
>>>> ergo: Tim Johnson's motivation is not the stopping of killing people.
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