[Peace-discuss] [Peace] This list is for brief announcements only
C. G. Estabrook
galliher at illinois.edu
Thu Oct 21 12:53:37 CDT 2010
I try to restrict my original posts on the peace list to announcements, and I
do "reply all" to discussions initiated by others. --CGE
---- Original message ----
>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 10:48:59 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Ricky Baldwin <baldwinricky at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] This list is for brief announcements
only
>To: carol inskeep <carolinskeep at yahoo.com>, Gregg Gordon
<ggregg79 at yahoo.com>, "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu>
>Cc: Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>
>Let's not try to dodge the fact that AWARE folks have
>discussed this issue at a number of meetings and have
>consistently decided that the "peace" list is for
>announcements only, "peace-discuss" is for, like the name
>suggests, discussion.
>
>At one time I was even given the task, at a well-attended
>meeting, of reminding people who send to the wrong list. A
>year or two later I had stopped doing this, and I was then
>asked to start up again. I have note been willing to do this
>job for some time, and I believe someone else did it for
>awhile, too. That person can speak up if they so choose.
>
>But it's worth noting that this is not just an arbitrary
>'Rule' for anarchists to resist along with
>corporate-government control of the world and its people.
>This is a purely organizational distinction agreed upon
>(repeatedly) at free and open meetings by autonomous human
>beings with the sole purpose of organizing information much as
>a person might designate one book shelf for Latin American
>history and another for African history.
>
>It is no more oppressive than the Dewey Decimal System.
>
>A number of AWARE supporters have expressed the desire to be
>informed of upcoming events they might actually be willing to
>attend without having their email clogged with discussion they
>are not at all interested in. They have given their email
>addresses or signed themselves up for one list or another with
>the understanding that the lists are organized as described
>above.
>
>Emails of this type do appear on the "peace" list of course at
>times accidentally. Most people have been very gracious when
>informed of the organization of lists, even apologetic. All
>of us get excited about things people "need to know about" but
>to insist on sending discussion to the announce list after it
>has been made clear repeatedly is tantamount to unsolicited
>"junk mail" or "spam".
>
>The effect is ultimately the same: people take steps to stop
>receiving the unwanted messages - the drop off lists, block
>email addresses, etc. And what has been achieved? If we
>knock on someone's door to discuss an issue and they tell us
>they do not want to speak to us, is it really useful to stand
>on the step arguing about it?
>
>But these are people who ARE interested in anti-war events,
>events they might ATTEND. It's one thing to lose
>members/supporters because of taking a principled stand on an
>important issue: human rights, war, poverty, etc. But if
>AWARE drives supporters away just because they don't want a
>dozen emails a day full of bickering, the effort has decreased
>its numbers, and for what purpose?
>
>Because factionalism is more fun than organizing is valued?
>
>I suppose it works in one way: if we drive away enough people
>in our immediate vicinity we can always claim the whole
>movement has fallen apart, lost its nerve, been co-opted,
>etc., etc.
>
>My 2c.
>
>Ricky Baldwin
>
>"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>
>--- On Thu, 10/21/10, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>wrote:
>
> From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] This list is for brief
> announcements only
> To: "carol inskeep" <carolinskeep at yahoo.com>, "Gregg Gordon"
> <ggregg79 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: "Peace List" <peace at lists.chambana.net>, "Peace-discuss"
> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 11:48 AM
>
> Discussions of this nature belong in the election campaign.
>
> ---- Original message ----
> >Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 09:38:24 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: carol inskeep <carolinskeep at yahoo.com>
> >Subject: [Peace-discuss] This list is for brief
> announcements only
> >To: Gregg Gordon <ggregg79 at yahoo.com>, "C. G. Estabrook"
> <galliher at illinois.edu>
> >Cc: Peace List <peace at lists.chambana.net>, Peace-discuss
> <peace-
> discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> >
> >Discussions of this nature belong on Peace Discuss.
>
> >
>
> >--- On Wed, 10/20/10, C. G. Estabrook
> <galliher at illinois.edu>
> >wrote:
>
> >
>
> > From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Fw: Money Can't
> Vote
> > To: "Gregg Gordon" <ggregg79 at yahoo.com>
>
> > Cc: "Peace List" <peace at lists.chambana.net>,
>
> > "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>
> > Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 11:09 PM
>
> >
>
> > First, Iraq and Afghanistan are both part of what the
>
> > Pentagon calls "The Long War" (for oil) in the Mideast.
> So
> > far, the US has killed a million people in Iraq under
>
> > Clinton (whose Secretary of State said that the tens of
>
> > thousands of dead children were "worth it"); a million
>
> > under Bush; and apparently hundreds of thousands in
> AfPak
> > under Bush and his third (Obama) term.
>
> >
>
> > That falls short of the perhaps 4 million we killed in
> SE
> > Asia, but of course Obama's escalated murders in SW Asia
>
> > are in no way justified by being fewer in number than
>
> > Kennedy-Johnson-Nixon's in Vietnam.
>
> >
>
> > It's difficult to determine when the Long War begins,
> but
> > it takes a tick up in the Carter administration when
> Carter
> > (and Obama's) adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski sends Osama
> bin
> > Laden and friends into Afghanistan (before the Russian
>
> > invasion) "to give the Russians a Vietnam of their own,"
> as
> > he said at the time, in the most expensive CIA operation
> to
> > date.
>
> >
>
> > If a Republican administration after 2012 brings Obama's
>
> > AfPak war to an end, then we'll have a third example of
> a
> > Democratic war concluded by Republicans in as many
>
> > generations. But that may not be likely. The news
> suggests
> > that the Obama administration is looking to expand the
> war
> > with an attack on Pakistan and/or Iran. It certainly
> isn't
> > looking to abandon the world's greatest energy-producing
>
> > region.
>
> >
>
> > Control of Mideast energy resources has been a
> cornerstone
> > of US foreign policy since 1945. Obama is simply lying
> when
> > he says the war is to "stop terrorism" - it obviously
>
> > increases terrorism - but he has to lie, because the
> only
> > Constitutional authority he has to wage war in the
> Mideast
> > is Congress' "Authorization for the Use of Military
> Force"
> > of September 2001 - which is directed against terrorism.
>
> >
>
> > Something positive to do: years ago, there was a great
>
> > debate in America, "How do we get out of Vietnam?" The
>
> > best answer was given by Herb Caen: "Ships and planes."
>
> > Load up the troops and bring them home. The Russians did
> -
> > and survived and prospered from the end of their war.
>
> >
>
> > Eventually we did, but it took two presidents' being
> driven
> > from office and (even more important) a revolt of the
>
> > American conscript army to do it.
>
> >
>
> > Regards, CGE
>
> >
>
> > On 10/20/10 7:15 PM, Gregg Gordon wrote:
>
> >
>
> > So I conclude from your statement that you don't
> consider
> > either Iraq or Afghanistan to be "major" wars. So why
>
> > are you so worked up about them? I think you're just
>
> > still mad at Lyndon Johnson.
>
> >
>
> > And please, don't accuse me of being some kind of
> racist
> > who doesn't mind us murdering brown people. That is
> so
> > lame. It's just that not all of us see the world in
> as
> > simple terms as you seem to. Simple solutions are
> nice,
> > but they're mainly for the simple-minded.
>
> >
>
> > All I'm saying is if you're so gung-ho on stopping the
>
> > war, why don't you come up with something positive to
> do
> > (as opposed to sniping from the sidelines) that might
>
> > help get us closer to that goal? We'll all get behind
>
> > you.
>
> >
>
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> > From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>
> > To: Gregg Gordon <ggregg79 at yahoo.com>
>
> > Cc: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>; Peace
> List
> > <peace at lists.chambana.net>; Peace-discuss
>
> > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>
> > Sent: Wed, October 20, 2010 5:10:40 PM
>
> > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] Fw: Money Can't
> Vote
> > You are aware, are you not, that America's major wars
>
> > since WWII - called by synecdoche "Korea" and "Vietnam"
> -
> > were started by Democratic administrations and ended
> by
> > Republican administrations. Since the current
> Democratic
> > administration has greatly expanded the killing in
> AfPak,
> > it's hard to argue that they're going to reverse their
>
> > policies. Voting for them is an acquiescence to those
>
> > policies.
>
> >
>
> > To say of Obama and the Democrats, "Let them kill some
>
> > Asians, because they might do some good someplace
> else,"
> > is at best a counsel of despair, if not an outright
>
> > criminal attitude. Particularly when it seems that
>
> > they're doing precisely the wrong things elsewhere, too
> -
> > not surprisingly, because they're working for the
> owners
> > of the banks, the insurance companies, the oil and
>
> > construction companies, etc. --CGE
>
> >
>
> > On 10/20/10 4:48 PM, Gregg Gordon wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Maybe because there are other important issues that
> she
> > does agree with him on. The only way you're going
> to
> > find a candidate you're in 100% agreement with is to
>
> > run for office. If support for the war is an
> absolute
> > deal breaker for you, fine. Not everybody sees it
> that
> > way. But if you think the war will end sooner if
> more
> > Republicans get elected, I think you're out of your
>
> > mind.
>
> >
>
> >
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
> > From: C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>
> > To: Jenifer Cartwright <jencart13 at yahoo.com>
>
> > Cc: Peace List <peace at lists.chambana.net>;
>
> > Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>
> > Sent: Wed, October 20, 2010 4:33:52 PM
>
> > Subject: Re: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] Fw: Money Can't
>
> > Vote
>
> > This guy supports the war. I can't see why anyone on
> an
> > anti-war list would contribute to him.
>
> >
>
> > On 10/20/10 4:28 PM, Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Another request for help...
>
> > I love this guy!
>
> > --Jenifer
>
> > --- On Wed, 10/20/10, Rep. Alan Grayson
>
> > <alangrayson at graysonforcongress.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
> +------------------+
> >
> |CallforGrayson.com|
> > |
> |
> > |[IMG]
> |
> > |
> |
> > |Make 10 calls
> now!|
> >
> +------------------+
> >
>
> > Dear Jenifer,
>
> >
>
> > This election is about the people standing
> against
> > corporate special interests, which are trying to
>
> > bury me with lying ads because they know I
> can’t
> > be bought. But money can’t vote – people
> can.
> >
>
> > This week is the first week of Early Vote, which
>
> > means people in Central Florida are voting right
>
> > now.
>
> >
>
> > Getting our supporters to the polls now could
> make
> > up our winning margin, and that's why we need
> you
> > calling supporters and asking them to vote.
>
> >
>
> > You can start calling whenever you like, but we
>
> > really need people to start calling at 4 p.m.
>
> > Eastern Time.
>
> >
>
> > Can you sign up for a shift today from 4-6 p.m.
> ET,
> > or this evening 6-8 p.m. ET?
>
> >
>
> > We'll give you suggestions on what to say, and a
>
> > reporting tool so it's easy to let us know how
> it's
> > going.
>
> >
>
> > Thank you.
>
> >
>
> > Truth,
>
> >
>
> > Alan Grayson
>
> >
>
> > P.S. -- If you don't have time today, please
> sign
> > up to make calls on another day between now and
>
> > Election Day, November 2. Every voter you talk
> to
> > will make a difference.
>
> >
>
> > Sign up now.
>
> >
>
> > Paid for and Authorized by the Committee to
> Elect
> > Alan Grayson
>
> >
>
> > empowered by Salsa
>
> > Web Bug from
>
> >
>
> >
> http://salsa.mydccc.org/dia/TrackImage?key=29044283
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > Peace-discuss mailing list
>
> > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>
> > http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
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>
> > Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>
> > http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>
> >
>
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
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>
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>
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>
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