[Peace-discuss] [Peace] This list is for brief announcements, e.g., 'Obama slaughters innocents..."

Wed Oct 27 17:15:44 CDT 2010

"...Obama is forever 'murdering' people around the world rather than that his 
(administration's) policies indeed lead to the slaughter of innocents..."
--M. Brussel

"Killing one person is murder; killing thousands is foreign policy"
--bumper sticker purchased from AWARE table at Farmers' Market

I met Murder on the way -
He had a mask like Castlereagh* -
Very smooth he looked, yet grim;
Seven blood-hounds followed him:

All were fat; and well they might
Be in admirable plight,
For one by one, and two by two,
He tossed the human hearts to chew
Which from his wide cloak he drew.

Next came Fraud, and he had on,
Like Eldon, an ermined gown;
His big tears, for he wept well,
Turned to mill-stones as they fell.

And the little children, who
Round his feet played to and fro,
Thinking every tear a gem,
Had their brains knocked out by them...

'And that slaughter to the Nation
Shall steam up like inspiration,
Eloquent, oracular;
A volcano heard afar.

'And these words shall then become
Like Oppression's thundered doom
Ringing through each heart and brain,
Heard again - again - again -

'Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number -
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many - they are few.'

--from "The Masque of Anarchy," by Percy Bysshe Shelley, written on the occasion 
of the "Peterloo Massacre" carried out by the British Government at St Peter's 
Field, Manchester, on 16 August 1819, when cavalry charged into a crowd of 
60,000–80,000 gathered at a meeting to demand the reform of parliamentary 
representation. (Cf. the attack on the unarmed Bonus Expeditionary Force - 
43,000 marchers, including 17,000 World War I veterans and their families - in 
Washington DC on 28 July 1932 by US army infantry and cavalry supported by six 
tanks, and commanded by Army Chief of Staff General Douglas MacArthur; Major, 
later President, Dwight D. Eisenhower was his liaison with Washington police, 
and Major George Patton led the cavalry.)
___________

*British Foreign Minister who eventually killed himself by cutting his throat 
with a letter-opener.

On 10/27/10 12:07 AM, Brussel Morton K. wrote:
>  Joy and others,
>
>  I've been pondering the nature of the peace-discuss list for some
>  time, and am sympathetic to your annoyance and exasperation with its
>  current incarnation. Since it is an open forum, however, I'm not
>  sure anything can or should be done about it. Relatively few
>  contribute routinely to the discussion there. I have been among them,
>  but aside from articles I run across that appear pertinent to AWARE's
>  supposed mission—anti-war and anti-racism—, I usually only respond to
>  opinions or commentary I find fault with.
>
>  What irritates me in some of the discussion is a grossly repetitious
>  insistence on certain themes, themes to which I do not necessarily
>  disagree, but whose presentation I think are not quite honest, hence
>  destructive. Thus, Obama is forever "murdering" people around the
>  world rather than that his (administration's) policies indeed lead
>  to the slaughter of innocents. For some, it seems any slight
>  deviation from their own beliefs are to be condemned. There is scant
>  nuance, to an extent often bordering on intellectual dishonesty
>  and/or distortion. Distinctions are avoided. "Liberals", the "left",
>  Democrats, and even "progressives"—defined rather arbitrarily
>  according to the points to be made—are too often cast as stooges or
>  dupes for the power elites (not insufficiently anti-capitalist,
>  anti-war, and/or anti-imperialist). "Abortion is murder" is another
>  example. Religious doctrine/beliefs (God) also sometimes get thrown
>  in where, from my point of view, they have no relevance to the
>  mission of AWARE. Not infrequently, when a discussion occurs, and
>  questions are raised, the questions are not answered honestly or
>  directly, but rather a bait-and-switch rhetorical technique ensues.
>
>  But to repeat, perhaps the most irritating aspect that arises for me
>  is the obsessional repetition of what one wants to have others
>  believe. Furthermore, I find that the discussions on the list are
>  not broadly balanced; the variety of opinions on the list seems to me
>  to be too narrow.
>
>  Presentations found at ZNet is much better.
>
>  One obvious solution to all this is to simply remove oneself from
>  the list. But there are useful things to be aware of that are
>  exposed there. It's akin to subscribing and hence being led to read
>  the editorial page of the News-Gazette or the NYT, not to mention
>  the choice of articles presented. I'm often tempted to cease my
>  subscriptions, but I haven't followed through.
>
>  My 2¢.
>
>  --mkb
>
>
>
>
>  On Oct 23, 2010, at 4:03 PM, David Green wrote:
>
> > Joy,
> >
> > You took this off-list in your response to me. I am of course
> > violating your privacy by putting it back on-list. But that's how
> > I feel about it.
> >
> > I disagree with your comments about the list. My disagreements are
> > so fundamental and so obvious, that all I can so is express my
> > consternation and amazement at your assertions.
> >
> > The point of this list is for individuals to inform each other,
> > and discuss/debate important issues. For the most part, I've
> > always liked it just fine. When I haven't, I've done other things.
> >
> > If you have a response, please keep it on-list. Neither of our
> > comments to each other have any meaning except in the context of
> > this list and its readers.
> >
> > David
> >
> > ------------------------- *From:* "jgeo61 at comcast.net
> > <mailto:jgeo61 at comcast.net>" <jgeo61 at comcast.net
> > <mailto:jgeo61 at comcast.net>> *To:* David Green
> > <davegreen84 at yahoo.com <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>> *Sent:*
> > Sat, October 23, 2010 1:19:22 PM *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss]
> > [Peace] This list is for brief announcements only
> >
> > David,
> >
> > My concerns stem from the creation of a large list serve for the
> > benefit of many now being taken over by less than a handful of
> > people. What efforts are we doing to encourage new people to
> > start their own discussion? This group has simply created a
> > platform for these folks to banter back and forth with each other.
> > I resent being given the option to leave the list and I am not sure
> > why I should need to. Is it because it is out of control? Is it
> > because we should just throw up our hands and say "boys will be
> > boys"? I know it cannot be because this is a free flowing exchange
> > of opinions..it just isn't. We cannot hide the large purple
> > elephant in the room here.
> >
> > I agree that is issue has reared its ugly head on more than one
> > occasion and I think it is time to meet to discuss fully what is
> > the purpose and intent of this list serve.
> >
> > Joy ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Green"
> > <davegreen84 at yahoo.com <mailto:davegreen84 at yahoo.com>> To:
> > jgeo61 at comcast.net <mailto:jgeo61 at comcast.net> Cc: "Peace Discuss"
> > <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> > <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> Sent: Saturday, October
> > 23, 2010 12:44:28 PM Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] This
> > list is for brief announcements only
> >
> > Joy, that's just ridiculous, and I resent it. This space is for
> > those who have substantive comments, and for others to
> > substantively disagree with those comments. You're offended by the
> > content of some comments. You're welcome to say why that's the
> > case. Please don't try to silence those that you don't agree with.
> > If you're not interested in what some people have to say, then you
> > can resign from the list, or only selectively open the messages
> > from those that you tend to agree with.
> >
> > David Green
> >
> > ------------------------- **From:** "jgeo61 at comcast.net
> > <mailto:jgeo61 at comcast.net>" <jgeo61 at comcast.net
> > <mailto:jgeo61 at comcast.net>> *To:* E. Wayne Johnson <ewj at pigs.ag
> > <mailto:ewj at pigs.ag>> *Cc:* Peace-discuss
> > <peace-discuss at anti-war.net <mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>;
> > Brian Dolinar <briandolinar at gmail.com
> > <mailto:briandolinar at gmail.com>> *Sent:* Sat, October 23, 2010
> > 9:51:10 AM *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] This list is for
> > brief announcements only
> >
> > Wayne,
> >
> > All you want is to have a captured audience to listen to your
> > pontifications. Thanks to you this medium has turned into a
> > private chat room instead of the public space that it was created
> > for. It is also evident that you do not read other e mails as
> > they are asking you, more gently that I intend to, to change your
> > venue. Wayne, meet somewhere else, in person and chat to your
> > hearts content; I could care less. I am tired of being held
> > captive by your tiny group of wannabees and I will express my views
> > that you need to be contained.
> >
> > Joy
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "E. Wayne Johnson" <ewj at pigs.ag
> > <mailto:ewj at pigs.ag>> To: jgeo61 at comcast.net
> > <mailto:jgeo61 at comcast.net> Cc: "C. G. Estabrook"
> > <galliher at illinois.edu <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>>,
> > "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net
> > <mailto:peace-discuss at anti-war.net>>, "Brian Dolinar"
> > <briandolinar at gmail.com <mailto:briandolinar at gmail.com>> Sent:
> > Friday, October 22, 2010 5:21:13 PM Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss]
> > [Peace] This list is for brief announcements only
> >
> > Joy Since the hindrance of free speech and discourse are important
> > part of the US government's strategy to stifle opposition to the
> > war, I am surprised that you are so interested in control on this
> > list.
> >
> > "I am expected to receive this trash in my inbox on a daily basis?"
> > /Poor Baby./
> >
> > We need more hooliganism and fewer schoolmarm-ism if we are to
> > ever overthrow the war-mongering.
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> > On 10/23/2010 4:53 AM, jgeo61 at comcast.net wrote:
> >
> > What is this all about? I am expected to receive this trash in my
> > inbox on a daily basis? My insight for the day is GET OFF THIS
> > LISTSERVE!! Take your PRIVATE foul mouthed chats SOMEWHERE ELSE! I
> > do not want to be an audience member any further to the lot of you
> > hooligans.
> >
> > JOY GEORGE
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. G. Estabrook"
> > <galliher at illinois.edu> To: "Peace-discuss"
> > <peace-discuss at anti-war.net> Cc: "Brian Dolinar"
> > <briandolinar at gmail.com> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2010 2:58:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] This list is for brief
> > announcements only
> >
> > [Someone writing as "Brian Dolinar, Ph.D." has an insightful
> > political comment to make; it will undoubtedly add to the clarity
> > of our joint considerations. Viz., and to wit--]
> >
> > On 10/22/10 8:53 AM, Brian Dolinar wrote:
> >> FUCK OFF!
> >>
> >> BD
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