[Peace-discuss] [Peace] come and share your reasons for being against this war with Dr. Gill / Tuesday, 5pm-6pm / UPTV 400 South Vine Street, Urbana, IL

Wed Oct 27 18:48:53 CDT 2010

Too much Trent Reznor, I suppose.

On 10/28/2010 2:56 AM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> Self-styled "progressives" screaming for censorship - to protect their 
> "community" from incorrect thoughts!
>
> Since Brian's favored form of argument seems to be an expletive, I 
> suppose I shouldn't be surprised.
>
> On 10/27/10 1:05 PM, Brian Dolinar wrote:
> > Seriously, are you folks going
> to allow this fool to bully his way
>
> > into everybody's mailboxes. He's already destroyed the AWARE
> group,
>
> > now are you going to allow him to cause a mass exodus from
> the peace
>
> > list, a valuable resource to the progressive community?
>
> >
>
> > BD
>
> >
>
> > On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 12:56 PM, C. G. Estabrook
>
> > <galliher at illinois.edu
> <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Mort--
>
> >
>
> > Naturally I appreciate your tender concern for my absence
> from AOTA's
>
> > interview with David Gill. In fact at the time I was
> literally up in
>
> > the air, flying Missoula-Denver-Dallas-CU and arriving home
> just in
>
> > time to see the program. In fact, I would love to have asked
> Gill
>
> > some questions about the war - and to quote back to him his
> evasions
>
> > from the past.
>
> >
>
> > Linda got Gill to agree to be on the show - and asked me not
> to be
>
> > "confrontational." But Gill said he couldn't make the regular
>
> > recording time. So I asked the accommodating people at UPTV
> to
>
> > provide us with other possible times: Gill eventually chose
> 5-6pm on
>
> > 10/26. As it happened, I was out of town Friday-Tuesday.
>
> >
>
> > I've been corresponding with Gill since he announced for the
> seat in
>
> > the fall of 2009 - trying to get him to come clean on his
> stance on
>
> > the war. (From the News-Gazette, October, 2009: "Gill said he
> would
>
> > not support a total withdrawal of U.S. forces from
> Afghanistan...")
>
> >
>
> > Gill's statement read at the top of program managed to evade
> any
>
> > mention of (a) the administration's motive for the AfPak war
> and its
>
> > lies ("stopping terrorism") about those motives; (b) any
> principled -
>
> > as opposed to "pragmatic" ("we might not be winning") -
> reason to
>
> > oppose the war (as found, e.g., among Ron Paulists,
> Libertarians and
>
> > paleo-conservatives); and/or (c) a pledge like Tim Johnson's
> to vote
>
> > against any more money for war. (And Johnson is in fact
> voting that
>
> > way.) What the statement does contain are self-serving errors
> in fact
>
> > about the history of the AfPak war.
>
> >
>
> > As for the no-hope comment, did you note that the NYT gave
> Gill a
>
> > 0.2% (that's two-tenths of one percent) chance of winning?
>
> >
>
> > And I'm sorry you don't see the difference between Gill's
> campaign
>
> > and the "presumed futile" Green party campaign for the same
> seat in
>
> > 2002. The Greens took advantage of a quirk in the repressive
>
> > election laws to run a campaign - which they knew they would
> loose -
>
> > in order to raise issues that would not be raised by the
> Republicans
>
> > or Democrats. Gill evaded issues - especially the war - in
> order to
>
> > try to be elected.
>
> >
>
> > It's not a smear to point out those evasions. --CGE
>
> >
>
> > On 10/26/10 11:45 PM, Morton K. Brussel wrote:
>
> >> Most telling of all is the
>
> > absence of Carl Estabrook on the panel. If
>
> >
>
> >> he were able to participate (Did he require an invitation
>
> > [for a
>
> >
>
> >> program he initiated]? Did Gill object to his possible
>
> > presence on
>
> >
>
> >> the panel with him?), his absence indicates rank
> cowardice.
>
> > Evidently
>
> >
>
> >> Estabrook feels he can mouth off accusations better if
> there
>
> > is no
>
> >
>
> >> face-to face rebuttal.
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >> As for the sly "no-hope" comment, Estabrook should know
> what
>
> > it means
>
> >
>
> >> to run a campaign presumed futile. His attempt to smear
> the
>
> > program
>
> >
>
> >> is appalling.
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >> I thought Gill expressed himself admirably, and Karen,
> Ron
>
> > and Linda
>
> >
>
> >> deserve our thanks for carrying on and preparing well.
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >> --mkb
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >> On Oct 26, 2010, at 11:06 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >>> The program tonight as broadcast showed a remarkable
>
> > development to
>
> >
>
> >>> David Gill's views on the US war in the Middle East.
>
> > (Gill is the
>
> >
>
> >>> no-hope Democratic candidate running against the
>
> > Republican
>
> >
>
> >>> incumbent, Tim Johnson, for the local congressional
>
> > seat.) He even
>
> >
>
> >>> struggled to modify the statement - his statement -
> read
>
> > by a
>
> >
>
> >>> member of the panel at the beginning of the program!
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>> One can see why - that statement is a tissue of lies.
>
> > What he said
>
> >
>
> >>> tonight - together with that statement - is a painful
>
> > exercise in
>
> >
>
> >>> misrepresentation - both of his own views and those
> of
>
> > his
>
> >
>
> >>> opponent. That has of course been the practice of the
>
> > Democrats
>
> >
>
> >>> since the beginning of this phase of the Long War.
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>> See the statement here:
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
> <http://www.gill2010.com/issues/foreign-policy/afghanistan/>
>
> >
> <http://www.gill2010.com/issues/foreign-policy/afghanistan/>.
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>> We might actually get a debate on the war if people
> have
>
> > a chance
>
> >
>
> >>> to see how disingenuous Gill's statement is - even
> with
>
> > his
>
> >
>
> >>> "evolutions" on tonight's program.
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>> Gill's major charge against Johnson is that he
> "doesn't
>
> > support the
>
> >
>
> >>> troops" - a made-up Bushism. But Gill's
> prevarications
>
> > and
>
> >
>
> >>> misrepresentations have deprived the local voters of
> a
>
> > real debate
>
> >
>
> >>> on the war - which looked liked happening, when
> Johnson
>
> > said he
>
> >
>
> >>> was wrong to vote for the invasions of Afghanistan
> and
>
> > Iraq, and
>
> >
>
> >>> pledged to vote against any more money for war in the
>
> > Mideast - and
>
> >
>
> >>> he is voting that way. Gill still won't make that
> pledge,
>
> > as a
>
> >
>
> >>> close examination of his statement shows.
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>> Both parties have worked hard to make sure that next
>
> > week's
>
> >
>
> >>> election is meaningless - and have largely succeeded.
> It
>
> > will not,
>
> >
>
> >>> most importantly, be a vote on the war. We should
>
> > therefore be
>
> >
>
> >>> working to stir up people across the political
> spectrum
>
> > on the
>
> >
>
> >>> military and economic betrayals of the current
> president
>
> > and
>
> >
>
> >>> Congress.
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>> The question is, Whom are we going to allow Barack
> Obama
>
> > to kill
>
> >
>
> >>> going forward, and why?
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>> Some people are talking about what Obama and the
>
> > Democratas are
>
> >
>
> >>> actually doing. Contrast Chris Floyd's remarks, as
>
> > follows, with
>
> >
>
> >>> Gill's evasions, above:
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>> "...Friends, it's very simple: if you support Barack
>
> > Obama and the
>
> >
>
> >>> Democrats -- even if reluctantly, even if you're just
>
> > being all
>
> >
>
> >>> sophisticatedly super-savvy and blogospherically
>
> > strategic about
>
> >
>
> >>> it, playing the "long game" or eleven-dimensional
> chess
>
> > or what
>
> >
>
> >>> have you -- you are supporting the outright murder of
>
> > innocent
>
> >
>
> >>> people who have never done anything against you or
> yours.
>
> > You have
>
> >
>
> >>> walked into a house, battered down the bedroom door,
> put
>
> > the barrel
>
> >
>
> >>> of a gun against the temple of a sleeping child, and
>
> > pulled the
>
> >
>
> >>> trigger. That is what you are supporting, that is
> what
>
> > you are
>
> >
>
> >>> complicit in, that is what you yourself are doing."
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>> Full article at
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
> <http://chris-floyd.com/articles/1-latest-news/2035-obamas-finest-hour-killing-innocent-people-for-qmade-up-crapq.html>
>
> >
> <http://chris-floyd.com/articles/1-latest-news/2035-obamas-finest-hour-killing-innocent-people-for-qmade-up-crapq.html>.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> > On 10/25/10 12:05 PM, Karen Medina wrote:
>
> >>>> Dr. Gill is coming to
>
> > talk with
>
> >
>
> >>> AWARE (the local anti-war,
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>>> anti-racism effort of Champaign-Urbana). Would
> you
>
> > like to
>
> >
>
> >>> come and
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>>> share your reasons for being against this war
> with
>
> > Dr. Gill?
>
> >
>
> >>> We would
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>>> greatly appreciate it.
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>>>
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>>> Tuesday, October 26, 2010 5pm-6pm UPTV (in the
> Urbana
>
> > City
>
> >
>
> >>> Council
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>>> Chambers) 400 South Vine Street, Urbana, IL A
> taping
>
> > of AWARE
>
> >
>
> >>> on the
>
> >
>
> >>>
>
> >
>
> >>>> Air for Channel 6 that will air at 10pm Tuesday
>
> > evening.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________ Peace mailing
> list
>
> > Peace at lists.chambana.net
> <mailto:Peace at lists.chambana.net>
>
> > http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -- Brian Dolinar, Ph.D. 303 W. Locust St. Urbana, IL 61801
>
> > briandolinar at gmail.com <mailto:briandolinar at gmail.com>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
>    

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