[Peace-discuss] Fwd: [ufpj-activist] Regarding the 2012 election
C. G. Estabrook
galliher at illinois.edu
Sun May 15 20:33:55 CDT 2011
Corey--
That sounds right to me. I see no reason to take PDA or any similar group
seriously until they back an anti-war anti-Wall Street challenger to Obama in
the Democratic primaries - and not "to bring wayward independent lefties 'back
under the big tent'" - but to reverse Obama's military & economic policies.
Regards, CGE
On 5/15/11 8:22 PM, Corey Mattson wrote:
> Interesting that much of the discussion centered around Progressive Democrats
> of America, and surprising that Carl Davidson believes that they are
> "independent" of the Democrats. I met one of the big shots of PDA in
> Minneapolis/St. Paul as I was tabling for Nader back in 2004, and he bragged
> about having coordinated kicking Nader off the ballot in Arizona. I couldn't
> believe it, that he would brag about taking choices off the table for people
> like me, and I've always held PDA in contempt ever since. If I remember
> correctly, this same guy was Kucinich's campaign manager, or at least high up
> in his campaign. From that experience I have believed that PDA exists, like
> Kucinich's presidential runs, to bring wayward independent lefties "back under
> the big tent."
>
> --- Corey
>
>
> On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net
> <mailto:mkbrussel at comcast.net>> wrote:
>
> Some may be interested in these exchanges about anti-war efforts from the
> UFPJ list-serve. They have been going on interminably, it seems, but still
> are interesting in reflecting the divisions and discussions within the
> "movement".
>
> --mkb
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> *From: *tim carpenter <pdatimcarpenter at gmail.com
>> <mailto:pdatimcarpenter at gmail.com>>
>> *Date: *May 15, 2011 12:25:36 AM CDT
>> *To: *David McReynolds <dmcreynolds at nyc.rr.com
>> <mailto:dmcreynolds at nyc.rr.com>>
>> *Cc: *Peace Geezers <peace.geezers at lists.riseup.net
>> <mailto:peace.geezers at lists.riseup.net>>,
>> ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org <mailto:ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org>
>> *Subject: **Re: [ufpj-activist] Regarding the 2012 election*
>>
>> thanks David...great email to close out the night...peace
>>
>> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 9:41 PM, David McReynolds <dmcreynolds at nyc.rr.com
>> <mailto:dmcreynolds at nyc.rr.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Your first reaction to a vote for Obama may well be "never". At 81
>> I've been through this game all my
>> life, twice running for President on the Socialist Party ticket, and
>> always telling audiences I wasn't so
>> concerned with getting their vote as getting their minds to think
>> along new lines.
>> Unless 2012 is totally different from all those in the past, by
>> September of 2012 everyone will have
>> convinced themselves that if the GOP candidate wins things will be
>> worse than Hitler. I remember
>> in 1960 (that is a long time ago!) that in May and June of that year
>> liberals were wearing "No One
>> For President" buttons, but by October they were backing Kennedy.
>> On the most basic issues the two parties are the same - that is, both
>> support a capitalist structuring
>> of the economy, and both support the military/industrial complex.
>> (The liberals supported the
>> Vietnam War in its early days, and today support NATO actions in Libya).
>> On some issues there are differences. If you are elderly, if you are
>> a person of color, if you are
>> a union member, you can expect slightly better treatment from the
>> Democrats.
>> What is much more important is to keep in mind the following things:
>> . . . No matter who is President, if there is a real opposition in
>> Congress, even a few real "tribunes
>> of the people" it makes a difference. That means paying attention of
>> what Tim Carpenter is saying.
>> . . . No matter who is President, or who is in Congress, it is often
>> "what is happening in the streets"
>> that is more important. How many of you are old enough to remember
>> the May Days in 1971 when
>> 15,000 people were arrested in Washington DC over the course of three
>> days (my figures may be
>> off - I think on the final day, when I got arrested, there are only
>> about 1500 that day). Tear gas
>> floated over Georgetown. Think of the first real coalition
>> demonstration in October 15, 1965,
>> pulled together by Norma Becker - thousands of people marched down
>> Fifth Avenue in New York
>> to protest the war. That was the beginning of the great coalitions
>> that climaxed in hundreds of
>> thousands demonstrating in Washington DC. Some of those marching were
>> in the Democratic
>> Party - the important thing is that on that day they were marching
>> with their feet.
>> . . . No matter who is President, we all vote every day of the year.
>> Some (not me, I don't earn
>> enough to withhold) refuse to pay war taxes. Some write their members
>> of Congress. Some
>> vigil. Some work in community groups. Some belong to a local
>> political club.
>> . . . At this point, from what I can see (and read on these lists)
>> PDA has some very good folks
>> in it who are thinking "outside the established Democratic Party" and
>> it also has some folks who
>> are members of the Democratic Party.
>> There is too often a very rigid view of social change in these
>> exchanges. The Soviet Union was
>> a dictatorship run by a Central Committee. And yet out of that rigid
>> monoply of power came Nikita
>> Khrushchev. And out of that same rigid structure came Gorbachev, who
>> deserves the real credit
>> for ending the insanity of the Cold War.
>> It was the Communist Party in Czechoslovakia which experimented with
>> the "Prague Spring".
>> If such radical changes could occur from within such rigid
>> structures, why do we assume that
>> *any and all work at any level* of the Democratic Party is a sell
>> out? Of course the Democratic
>> Party itself won't bring socialism, or demilitarization. But why do
>> we act as if we were living
>> under a dictatorship tighter than that in the Soviet Union? Social
>> change occurs at many levels
>> and we make an enormous mistake if we start shooting each other over
>> who does and who
>> doesn't support Obama. I won't. But I will be working with people who do.
>> David McReynolds
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* Tarak Kauff <mailto:takauff at gmail.com>
>> *To:* tim carpenter <mailto:pdatimcarpenter at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org
>> <mailto:ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 14, 2011 10:04 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [ufpj-activist] Fw: let the debate bloom
>>
>> Bill Fletcher has also stated in Black Commentator that if push
>> comes to shove, yes he will reluctantly support Obama and I
>> suspect a good section of PDA will do the same, citing the
>> alternative is unthinkable. So we wind up playing the same game
>> ad infinitum don't we?
>>
>> There are however alternatives that go beyond our corrupted
>> electoral politics as usual but you have to think a little bit
>> outside the box. Or you can keep playing the game, trying to
>> reform, trying to make it better, get more progressive people in
>> congress and while playing that game of very slow progress, Rome
>> is burning.
>>
>> I also noticed no direct answer about whether PDA will support
>> Obama. I wonder if instead, PDA took it's considerable collective
>> political intelligence and put that towards encouraging and
>> leading by example with direct nonviolent civil resistance to the
>> machine, instead of the legally safe, ineffective way of using
>> the system to transform the system, we could really accomplish
>> something together. I'm not at all trying to put PDA down, I have
>> a lot of respect for many of it's leaders and members, just
>> thinking out loud here and offering an alternative approach. TK
>>
>>
>> On May 14, 2011, at 4:55 PM, tim carpenter wrote:
>>
>> again not true Kevin.....more independents and greens
>> work with PDA then you claim ...ask David Cobb, Medea
>> Benjamin, Sen Bernie Sanders and Ben Manski to name a few
>>
>> as for 2012..... going to do as Bill Fletcher has
>> challenged us...get involved in races where we can make a
>> difference.. for PDA that means going flat out to elect
>> Norman Solomon and Marcy Wingograd
>>
>> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Kevin Zeese <kbzeese at gmail.com
>> <mailto:kbzeese at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Carl
>>
>> I was finished with this conversation but then Tim's small
>> "d" comment startled me and made me curious. So, I was really
>> not intending to harp on this, but I was sincerely confused
>> by his comment.
>>
>> I learned that legal classification the other day and was
>> glad to do so, but PDA still describes itself on its website
>> as "operating inside the Democratic Party." Does that sound
>> remotely independent? It sounds like, well ... inside the
>> Democratic Party. And, that is consistent with their
>> actions. They only challenge Dems in primaries, never in
>> General Elections. The website is filled with Democratic
>> elected officials. It endorses everything the Progressive
>> Caucus says, even their recent budget which did not support
>> single payer health care. Even the Progressive Caucus needs
>> to be pushed to take the right positions.
>>
>> I bet you are a rarity, Carl, not being registered Democrat
>> in PDA. I'm sure it is over 95% registered Dem.
>>
>> There is no need to run from being inside the party and being
>> made up of registered Democrats, just don't now try to call
>> PDA independent or small "d", unless there will be a major
>> change in its rhetoric, strategy and operations. I would
>> welcome such changes, so I do not want to stand in the way of
>> PDA becoming PdA.
>>
>> Did I miss the answer to Tarak's question about what PDA is
>> going to do about Obama in 2012?
>>
>> KZ
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Carl Davidson
>> <carld717 at aol.com <mailto:carld717 at aol.com>> wrote:
>>
>> KZ, you know as well as I do that PDA is an independent
>> PAC. It organizes among Democratic voters, and encourages
>> the more progressive candidates, but it has no formal
>> structural ties to the Democratic Party. Moreover, with
>> some 75,000 members and supporters ( it needs ten times
>> that) , it has a diverse array of views, as it should,
>> and is hardly monolithic.
>>
>> On 5/14/2011 3:56 PM, Kevin Zeese wrote:
>>> Tim
>>>
>>> When I read that I smiled, I thought that is totally
>>> different. A small "d" -- wow. I could even join an
>>> organization like that!
>>>
>>> But then I went back and looked at your website and you
>>> describe yourself as about "transforming the Democratic
>>> Party" and a "PAC operating inside the Democratic Party."
>>>
>>> How does that make you a small "D"? I'm sure I am not
>>> the only one confused.
>>>
>>> If you were a small D you would be a group that is
>>> seeking to bring real progressive democracy to the
>>> United States, not a two party corporate-duopoly; and a
>>> PAC operating separate from any political party seeking
>>> to improve American democracy.
>>>
>>> I am very confused what you mean by small "d" -- perhaps
>>> you were making a joke? If not, you should change the
>>> "What is PDA" page on your website,
>>> http://www.pdamerica.org/about/what-is-pda. If you
>>> really are small d, I bet a lot of people would join who
>>> are not currently members.
>>>
>>> KZ
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:23 PM, tim carpenter
>>> <pdatimcarpenter at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:pdatimcarpenter at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bruce why we say progressive first democrats
>>> second
>>>
>>> progressive democrats :-) ( small d)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 7:00 AM, Global Network
>>> <globalnet at mindspring.com
>>> <mailto:globalnet at mindspring.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am not one who is bored or tired with this
>>> discussion. I think one of the reasons we are
>>> in the mess we are in is because we do so little
>>> reflecting and have so few opportunities for
>>> nationwide strategic planning. We spend lots of
>>> time and energy putting out fires and chasing
>>> after one war or the other. Let's face it, it's
>>> a big country and we are up against massive
>>> corporate power and money. So I rather enjoy
>>> this back and forth, as god knows, I too am
>>> casting about for answers and new ways to build
>>> the peace and the needed revolution of values.
>>> I have very much appreciated the honest comments
>>> by local organizers who share similar
>>> difficulties trying to keep organizing alive as
>>> people continue to give Obama and his party a
>>> pass. It was much the same during the time of
>>> Clinton. But then once Bush II stole his first
>>> election many of the sheep came back to the flock.
>>> Our most successful organizing in Maine, and in
>>> the northeast during the past year or so, has
>>> been around the theme of Bring Our War $$ Home
>>> <http://www.bringourwardollarshome.org/>. This
>>> has enabled us to reach out more effectively to
>>> the unions, teachers, poor people's groups, and
>>> the like.
>>> It is a blessing, and a curse, that we are a
>>> fragmented movement in this huge nation. It
>>> becomes difficult to move as one - though our
>>> fragmentation allows us to reach into many
>>> corners. One thing that encourages me is that
>>> despite our mainstream media blackout, still 60%
>>> of the American people agree that we should get
>>> out of Afghanistan. So on some level our
>>> message is getting out there. The need now is
>>> to move that 60% to take some kind of action.
>>> That will only happen when they feel doing so
>>> benefits them in some way. Thus the importance
>>> of making the connections between endless war
>>> and fiscal crisis at home.
>>> The 46 states in fiscal crisis today total debt
>>> comes to $130 billion. The Pentagon will spend
>>> about $170 billion just this year on our wars in
>>> Iraq-Afghanistan-Pakistan-Libya. We have a
>>> strong case to make that teacher, firemen, and
>>> police layoffs could be averted - school,
>>> library, public hospital closings could be
>>> averted - social program cuts could all be
>>> averted if we end these wars now.
>>> It is absolutely true that the Democrats (with a
>>> few noble exceptions) don't want to do this. I
>>> agree with the others who have said we must have
>>> a peace movement that is independent of any
>>> political party. Loyalty should go to movement
>>> first and party second. Build the movement and
>>> the politicians will follow. To try to do it in
>>> the reverse order is a strategic mistake.
>>> Bruce K. Gagnon
>>> Coordinator
>>> Global Network Against Weapons & Nuclear Power
>>> in Space
>>> PO Box 652
>>> Brunswick, ME 04011
>>> (207) 443-9502 <tel:%28207%29%20443-9502>
>>> globalnet at mindspring.com
>>> <mailto:globalnet at mindspring.com>
>>> www.space4peace.org <http://www.space4peace.org/>
>>> http://space4peace.blogspot.com/ (blog)
>>>
>>> Thank God men cannot fly, and lay waste the sky
>>> as well as the earth. ~Henry David Thoreau
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Tim Carpenter
>>> Director Progressive Democrats of America (PDA)
>>> pdamerica.org <http://pdamerica.org/>
>>> Facebook: facebook.com/PDAmerica
>>> <http://facebook.com/PDAmerica>
>>> Become a ¢hange makes CHANGE sustainer:
>>> https://www.pdamerica.org/payments/give/donate
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> =============== Keep On Keepin' On Carl Davidson 'If you
>> don't have a strategy, you're part of someone else's
>> strategy.' - Alvin Toffler Follow me on twitter:
>> http://twitter.com/carldavidson Check out our newletter
>> E-letter: http://tinyurl.com/ccdslinks
>>
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>>
>> --
>> Tim Carpenter
>> Director Progressive Democrats of America (PDA)
>> pdamerica.org <http://pdamerica.org/>
>> Facebook: facebook.com/PDAmerica <http://facebook.com/PDAmerica>
>> Become a ¢hange makes CHANGE sustainer:
>> https://www.pdamerica.org/payments/give/donate
>>
>>
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>> --
>> Tim Carpenter
>> Director Progressive Democrats of America (PDA)
>> pdamerica.org <http://pdamerica.org/>
>> Facebook: facebook.com/PDAmerica <http://facebook.com/PDAmerica>
>> Become a ¢hange makes CHANGE sustainer:
>> https://www.pdamerica.org/payments/give/donate
>>
>>
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