[Peace-discuss] Fwd: [ufpj-activist] Regarding the 2012 election
Corey Mattson
coreymattson at gmail.com
Sun May 15 20:22:14 CDT 2011
Interesting that much of the discussion centered around Progressive
Democrats of America, and surprising that Carl Davidson believes that they
are "independent" of the Democrats. I met one of the big shots of PDA in
Minneapolis/St. Paul as I was tabling for Nader back in 2004, and he bragged
about having coordinated kicking Nader off the ballot in Arizona. I couldn't
believe it, that he would brag about taking choices off the table for people
like me, and I've always held PDA in contempt ever since. If I remember
correctly, this same guy was Kucinich's campaign manager, or at least high
up in his campaign. From that experience I have believed that PDA exists,
like Kucinich's presidential runs, to bring wayward independent lefties
"back under the big tent."
--- Corey
On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net>wrote:
> Some may be interested in these exchanges about anti-war efforts from the
> UFPJ list-serve. They have been going on interminably, it seems, but still
> are interesting in reflecting the divisions and discussions within the
> "movement".
>
> --mkb
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *tim carpenter <pdatimcarpenter at gmail.com>
> *Date: *May 15, 2011 12:25:36 AM CDT
> *To: *David McReynolds <dmcreynolds at nyc.rr.com>
> *Cc: *Peace Geezers <peace.geezers at lists.riseup.net>,
> ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org
> *Subject: **Re: [ufpj-activist] Regarding the 2012 election*
>
> thanks David...great email to close out the night...peace
>
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 9:41 PM, David McReynolds <dmcreynolds at nyc.rr.com>wrote:
>
>> Your first reaction to a vote for Obama may well be "never". At 81 I've
>> been through this game all my
>> life, twice running for President on the Socialist Party ticket, and
>> always telling audiences I wasn't so
>> concerned with getting their vote as getting their minds to think along
>> new lines.
>>
>> Unless 2012 is totally different from all those in the past, by September
>> of 2012 everyone will have
>> convinced themselves that if the GOP candidate wins things will be worse
>> than Hitler. I remember
>> in 1960 (that is a long time ago!) that in May and June of that year
>> liberals were wearing "No One
>> For President" buttons, but by October they were backing Kennedy.
>>
>> On the most basic issues the two parties are the same - that is, both
>> support a capitalist structuring
>> of the economy, and both support the military/industrial complex. (The
>> liberals supported the
>> Vietnam War in its early days, and today support NATO actions in Libya).
>>
>> On some issues there are differences. If you are elderly, if you are a
>> person of color, if you are
>> a union member, you can expect slightly better treatment from the
>> Democrats.
>>
>> What is much more important is to keep in mind the following things:
>>
>> . . . No matter who is President, if there is a real opposition in
>> Congress, even a few real "tribunes
>> of the people" it makes a difference. That means paying attention of what
>> Tim Carpenter is saying.
>>
>> . . . No matter who is President, or who is in Congress, it is often "what
>> is happening in the streets"
>> that is more important. How many of you are old enough to remember the May
>> Days in 1971 when
>> 15,000 people were arrested in Washington DC over the course of three days
>> (my figures may be
>> off - I think on the final day, when I got arrested, there are only about
>> 1500 that day). Tear gas
>> floated over Georgetown. Think of the first real coalition demonstration
>> in October 15, 1965,
>> pulled together by Norma Becker - thousands of people marched down Fifth
>> Avenue in New York
>> to protest the war. That was the beginning of the great coalitions that
>> climaxed in hundreds of
>> thousands demonstrating in Washington DC. Some of those marching were in
>> the Democratic
>> Party - the important thing is that on that day they were marching with
>> their feet.
>>
>> . . . No matter who is President, we all vote every day of the year. Some
>> (not me, I don't earn
>> enough to withhold) refuse to pay war taxes. Some write their members of
>> Congress. Some
>> vigil. Some work in community groups. Some belong to a local political
>> club.
>>
>> . . . At this point, from what I can see (and read on these lists) PDA has
>> some very good folks
>> in it who are thinking "outside the established Democratic Party" and it
>> also has some folks who
>> are members of the Democratic Party.
>>
>> There is too often a very rigid view of social change in these exchanges.
>> The Soviet Union was
>> a dictatorship run by a Central Committee. And yet out of that rigid
>> monoply of power came Nikita
>> Khrushchev. And out of that same rigid structure came Gorbachev, who
>> deserves the real credit
>> for ending the insanity of the Cold War.
>>
>> It was the Communist Party in Czechoslovakia which experimented with the
>> "Prague Spring".
>>
>> If such radical changes could occur from within such rigid structures, why
>> do we assume that
>> *any and all work at any level* of the Democratic Party is a sell out? Of
>> course the Democratic
>> Party itself won't bring socialism, or demilitarization. But why do we act
>> as if we were living
>> under a dictatorship tighter than that in the Soviet Union? Social change
>> occurs at many levels
>> and we make an enormous mistake if we start shooting each other over who
>> does and who
>> doesn't support Obama. I won't. But I will be working with people who do.
>>
>> David McReynolds
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> *From:* Tarak Kauff <takauff at gmail.com>
>> *To:* tim carpenter <pdatimcarpenter at gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org
>> *Sent:* Saturday, May 14, 2011 10:04 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [ufpj-activist] Fw: let the debate bloom
>>
>> Bill Fletcher has also stated in Black Commentator that if push comes to
>> shove, yes he will reluctantly support Obama and I suspect a good section of
>> PDA will do the same, citing the alternative is unthinkable. So we wind up
>> playing the same game ad infinitum don't we?
>>
>> There are however alternatives that go beyond our corrupted electoral
>> politics as usual but you have to think a little bit outside the box. Or you
>> can keep playing the game, trying to reform, trying to make it better, get
>> more progressive people in congress and while playing that game of very slow
>> progress, Rome is burning.
>>
>> I also noticed no direct answer about whether PDA will support Obama. I
>> wonder if instead, PDA took it's considerable collective political
>> intelligence and put that towards encouraging and leading by example with
>> direct nonviolent civil resistance to the machine, instead of the legally
>> safe, ineffective way of using the system to transform the system, we could
>> really accomplish something together. I'm not at all trying to put PDA down,
>> I have a lot of respect for many of it's leaders and members, just thinking
>> out loud here and offering an alternative approach. TK
>>
>>
>> On May 14, 2011, at 4:55 PM, tim carpenter wrote:
>>
>> again not true Kevin.....more independents and greens work with
>> PDA then you claim ...ask David Cobb, Medea Benjamin, Sen Bernie
>> Sanders and Ben Manski to name a few
>>
>> as for 2012..... going to do as Bill Fletcher has challenged
>> us...get involved in races where we can make a difference.. for PDA
>> that means going flat out to elect Norman Solomon and Marcy
>> Wingograd
>>
>> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Kevin Zeese <kbzeese at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Carl
>>>
>>> I was finished with this conversation but then Tim's small "d" comment
>>> startled me and made me curious. So, I was really not intending to harp on
>>> this, but I was sincerely confused by his comment.
>>>
>>> I learned that legal classification the other day and was glad to do so,
>>> but PDA still describes itself on its website as "operating inside the
>>> Democratic Party." Does that sound remotely independent? It sounds like,
>>> well ... inside the Democratic Party. And, that is consistent with their
>>> actions. They only challenge Dems in primaries, never in General Elections.
>>> The website is filled with Democratic elected officials. It endorses
>>> everything the Progressive Caucus says, even their recent budget which did
>>> not support single payer health care. Even the Progressive Caucus needs to
>>> be pushed to take the right positions.
>>>
>>> I bet you are a rarity, Carl, not being registered Democrat in PDA. I'm
>>> sure it is over 95% registered Dem.
>>>
>>> There is no need to run from being inside the party and being made up of
>>> registered Democrats, just don't now try to call PDA independent or small
>>> "d", unless there will be a major change in its rhetoric, strategy and
>>> operations. I would welcome such changes, so I do not want to stand in the
>>> way of PDA becoming PdA.
>>>
>>> Did I miss the answer to Tarak's question about what PDA is going to do
>>> about Obama in 2012?
>>>
>>> KZ
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Carl Davidson <carld717 at aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> KZ, you know as well as I do that PDA is an independent PAC. It
>>>> organizes among Democratic voters, and encourages the more progressive
>>>> candidates, but it has no formal structural ties to the Democratic Party.
>>>> Moreover, with some 75,000 members and supporters ( it needs ten times that)
>>>> , it has a diverse array of views, as it should, and is hardly monolithic.
>>>>
>>>> On 5/14/2011 3:56 PM, Kevin Zeese wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Tim
>>>>
>>>> When I read that I smiled, I thought that is totally different. A small
>>>> "d" -- wow. I could even join an organization like that!
>>>>
>>>> But then I went back and looked at your website and you describe
>>>> yourself as about "transforming the Democratic Party" and a "PAC operating
>>>> inside the Democratic Party."
>>>>
>>>> How does that make you a small "D"? I'm sure I am not the only one
>>>> confused.
>>>>
>>>> If you were a small D you would be a group that is seeking to bring real
>>>> progressive democracy to the United States, not a two party
>>>> corporate-duopoly; and a PAC operating separate from any political party
>>>> seeking to improve American democracy.
>>>>
>>>> I am very confused what you mean by small "d" -- perhaps you were making
>>>> a joke? If not, you should change the "What is PDA" page on your website,
>>>> http://www.pdamerica.org/about/what-is-pda. If you really are small d,
>>>> I bet a lot of people would join who are not currently members.
>>>>
>>>> KZ
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:23 PM, tim carpenter <
>>>> pdatimcarpenter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bruce why we say progressive first democrats second
>>>>>
>>>>> progressive democrats :-) ( small d)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 7:00 AM, Global Network <
>>>>> globalnet at mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not one who is bored or tired with this discussion. I think
>>>>>> one of the reasons we are in the mess we are in is because we do so little
>>>>>> reflecting and have so few opportunities for nationwide strategic planning.
>>>>>> We spend lots of time and energy putting out fires and chasing after one war
>>>>>> or the other. Let's face it, it's a big country and we are up against
>>>>>> massive corporate power and money. So I rather enjoy this back and forth,
>>>>>> as god knows, I too am casting about for answers and new ways to build the
>>>>>> peace and the needed revolution of values.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have very much appreciated the honest comments by local organizers
>>>>>> who share similar difficulties trying to keep organizing alive as people
>>>>>> continue to give Obama and his party a pass. It was much the same during
>>>>>> the time of Clinton. But then once Bush II stole his first election many of
>>>>>> the sheep came back to the flock.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our most successful organizing in Maine, and in the northeast during
>>>>>> the past year or so, has been around the theme of Bring Our War $$
>>>>>> Home <http://www.bringourwardollarshome.org/>. This has enabled us
>>>>>> to reach out more effectively to the unions, teachers, poor people's groups,
>>>>>> and the like.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is a blessing, and a curse, that we are a fragmented movement in
>>>>>> this huge nation. It becomes difficult to move as one - though our
>>>>>> fragmentation allows us to reach into many corners. One thing that
>>>>>> encourages me is that despite our mainstream media blackout, still 60% of
>>>>>> the American people agree that we should get out of Afghanistan. So on some
>>>>>> level our message is getting out there. The need now is to move that 60% to
>>>>>> take some kind of action. That will only happen when they feel doing so
>>>>>> benefits them in some way. Thus the importance of making the connections
>>>>>> between endless war and fiscal crisis at home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The 46 states in fiscal crisis today total debt comes to $130
>>>>>> billion. The Pentagon will spend about $170 billion just this year on our
>>>>>> wars in Iraq-Afghanistan-Pakistan-Libya. We have a strong case to make that
>>>>>> teacher, firemen, and police layoffs could be averted - school, library,
>>>>>> public hospital closings could be averted - social program cuts could all be
>>>>>> averted if we end these wars now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is absolutely true that the Democrats (with a few noble exceptions)
>>>>>> don't want to do this. I agree with the others who have said we must have a
>>>>>> peace movement that is independent of any political party. Loyalty should
>>>>>> go to movement first and party second. Build the movement and the
>>>>>> politicians will follow. To try to do it in the reverse order is a
>>>>>> strategic mistake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce K. Gagnon
>>>>>> Coordinator
>>>>>> Global Network Against Weapons & Nuclear Power in Space
>>>>>> PO Box 652
>>>>>> Brunswick, ME 04011
>>>>>> (207) 443-9502
>>>>>> globalnet at mindspring.com
>>>>>> www.space4peace.org
>>>>>> http://space4peace.blogspot.com/ (blog)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank God men cannot fly, and lay waste the sky as well as the earth.
>>>>>> ~Henry David Thoreau
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Tim Carpenter
>>>>> Director Progressive Democrats of America (PDA)
>>>>> pdamerica.org
>>>>> Facebook: facebook.com/PDAmerica
>>>>> Become a ¢hange makes CHANGE sustainer:
>>>>> https://www.pdamerica.org/payments/give/donate
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> ufpj-activist mailing list
>>>>>
>>>>> Post: ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> =============== Keep On Keepin' On Carl Davidson 'If you don't have a
>>>> strategy, you're part of someone else's strategy.' - Alvin Toffler Follow me
>>>> on twitter: http://twitter.com/carldavidson Check out our newletter
>>>> E-letter: http://tinyurl.com/ccdslinks
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Tim Carpenter
>> Director Progressive Democrats of America (PDA)
>> pdamerica.org
>> Facebook: facebook.com/PDAmerica
>> Become a ¢hange makes CHANGE sustainer:
>> https://www.pdamerica.org/payments/give/donate
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> Tim Carpenter
> Director Progressive Democrats of America (PDA)
> pdamerica.org
> Facebook: facebook.com/PDAmerica
> Become a ¢hange makes CHANGE sustainer:
> https://www.pdamerica.org/payments/give/donate
>
>
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