[Peace-discuss] Fwd: [ufpj-activist] Regarding the 2012 election
Brussel Morton K.
mkbrussel at comcast.net
Sun May 15 13:12:31 CDT 2011
Some may be interested in these exchanges about anti-war efforts from the UFPJ list-serve. They have been going on interminably, it seems, but still are interesting in reflecting the divisions and discussions within the "movement".
--mkb
Begin forwarded message:
> From: tim carpenter <pdatimcarpenter at gmail.com>
> Date: May 15, 2011 12:25:36 AM CDT
> To: David McReynolds <dmcreynolds at nyc.rr.com>
> Cc: Peace Geezers <peace.geezers at lists.riseup.net>, ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org
> Subject: Re: [ufpj-activist] Regarding the 2012 election
>
> thanks David...great email to close out the night...peace
>
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 9:41 PM, David McReynolds <dmcreynolds at nyc.rr.com> wrote:
> Your first reaction to a vote for Obama may well be "never". At 81 I've been through this game all my
> life, twice running for President on the Socialist Party ticket, and always telling audiences I wasn't so
> concerned with getting their vote as getting their minds to think along new lines.
>
> Unless 2012 is totally different from all those in the past, by September of 2012 everyone will have
> convinced themselves that if the GOP candidate wins things will be worse than Hitler. I remember
> in 1960 (that is a long time ago!) that in May and June of that year liberals were wearing "No One
> For President" buttons, but by October they were backing Kennedy.
>
> On the most basic issues the two parties are the same - that is, both support a capitalist structuring
> of the economy, and both support the military/industrial complex. (The liberals supported the
> Vietnam War in its early days, and today support NATO actions in Libya).
>
> On some issues there are differences. If you are elderly, if you are a person of color, if you are
> a union member, you can expect slightly better treatment from the Democrats.
>
> What is much more important is to keep in mind the following things:
>
> . . . No matter who is President, if there is a real opposition in Congress, even a few real "tribunes
> of the people" it makes a difference. That means paying attention of what Tim Carpenter is saying.
>
> . . . No matter who is President, or who is in Congress, it is often "what is happening in the streets"
> that is more important. How many of you are old enough to remember the May Days in 1971 when
> 15,000 people were arrested in Washington DC over the course of three days (my figures may be
> off - I think on the final day, when I got arrested, there are only about 1500 that day). Tear gas
> floated over Georgetown. Think of the first real coalition demonstration in October 15, 1965,
> pulled together by Norma Becker - thousands of people marched down Fifth Avenue in New York
> to protest the war. That was the beginning of the great coalitions that climaxed in hundreds of
> thousands demonstrating in Washington DC. Some of those marching were in the Democratic
> Party - the important thing is that on that day they were marching with their feet.
>
> . . . No matter who is President, we all vote every day of the year. Some (not me, I don't earn
> enough to withhold) refuse to pay war taxes. Some write their members of Congress. Some
> vigil. Some work in community groups. Some belong to a local political club.
>
> . . . At this point, from what I can see (and read on these lists) PDA has some very good folks
> in it who are thinking "outside the established Democratic Party" and it also has some folks who
> are members of the Democratic Party.
>
> There is too often a very rigid view of social change in these exchanges. The Soviet Union was
> a dictatorship run by a Central Committee. And yet out of that rigid monoply of power came Nikita
> Khrushchev. And out of that same rigid structure came Gorbachev, who deserves the real credit
> for ending the insanity of the Cold War.
>
> It was the Communist Party in Czechoslovakia which experimented with the "Prague Spring".
>
> If such radical changes could occur from within such rigid structures, why do we assume that
> any and all work at any level of the Democratic Party is a sell out? Of course the Democratic
> Party itself won't bring socialism, or demilitarization. But why do we act as if we were living
> under a dictatorship tighter than that in the Soviet Union? Social change occurs at many levels
> and we make an enormous mistake if we start shooting each other over who does and who
> doesn't support Obama. I won't. But I will be working with people who do.
>
> David McReynolds
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tarak Kauff
> To: tim carpenter
> Cc: ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org
> Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2011 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [ufpj-activist] Fw: let the debate bloom
>
> Bill Fletcher has also stated in Black Commentator that if push comes to shove, yes he will reluctantly support Obama and I suspect a good section of PDA will do the same, citing the alternative is unthinkable. So we wind up playing the same game ad infinitum don't we?
>
> There are however alternatives that go beyond our corrupted electoral politics as usual but you have to think a little bit outside the box. Or you can keep playing the game, trying to reform, trying to make it better, get more progressive people in congress and while playing that game of very slow progress, Rome is burning.
>
> I also noticed no direct answer about whether PDA will support Obama. I wonder if instead, PDA took it's considerable collective political intelligence and put that towards encouraging and leading by example with direct nonviolent civil resistance to the machine, instead of the legally safe, ineffective way of using the system to transform the system, we could really accomplish something together. I'm not at all trying to put PDA down, I have a lot of respect for many of it's leaders and members, just thinking out loud here and offering an alternative approach. TK
>
>
> On May 14, 2011, at 4:55 PM, tim carpenter wrote:
>
> again not true Kevin.....more independents and greens work with PDA then you claim ...ask David Cobb, Medea Benjamin, Sen Bernie Sanders and Ben Manski to name a few
>
> as for 2012..... going to do as Bill Fletcher has challenged us...get involved in races where we can make a difference.. for PDA that means going flat out to elect Norman Solomon and Marcy Wingograd
>
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:21 PM, Kevin Zeese <kbzeese at gmail.com> wrote:
> Carl
>
> I was finished with this conversation but then Tim's small "d" comment startled me and made me curious. So, I was really not intending to harp on this, but I was sincerely confused by his comment.
>
> I learned that legal classification the other day and was glad to do so, but PDA still describes itself on its website as "operating inside the Democratic Party." Does that sound remotely independent? It sounds like, well ... inside the Democratic Party. And, that is consistent with their actions. They only challenge Dems in primaries, never in General Elections. The website is filled with Democratic elected officials. It endorses everything the Progressive Caucus says, even their recent budget which did not support single payer health care. Even the Progressive Caucus needs to be pushed to take the right positions.
>
> I bet you are a rarity, Carl, not being registered Democrat in PDA. I'm sure it is over 95% registered Dem.
>
> There is no need to run from being inside the party and being made up of registered Democrats, just don't now try to call PDA independent or small "d", unless there will be a major change in its rhetoric, strategy and operations. I would welcome such changes, so I do not want to stand in the way of PDA becoming PdA.
>
> Did I miss the answer to Tarak's question about what PDA is going to do about Obama in 2012?
>
> KZ
>
>
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Carl Davidson <carld717 at aol.com> wrote:
> KZ, you know as well as I do that PDA is an independent PAC. It organizes among Democratic voters, and encourages the more progressive candidates, but it has no formal structural ties to the Democratic Party. Moreover, with some 75,000 members and supporters ( it needs ten times that) , it has a diverse array of views, as it should, and is hardly monolithic.
>
> On 5/14/2011 3:56 PM, Kevin Zeese wrote:
>> Tim
>>
>> When I read that I smiled, I thought that is totally different. A small "d" -- wow. I could even join an organization like that!
>>
>> But then I went back and looked at your website and you describe yourself as about "transforming the Democratic Party" and a "PAC operating inside the Democratic Party."
>>
>> How does that make you a small "D"? I'm sure I am not the only one confused.
>>
>> If you were a small D you would be a group that is seeking to bring real progressive democracy to the United States, not a two party corporate-duopoly; and a PAC operating separate from any political party seeking to improve American democracy.
>>
>> I am very confused what you mean by small "d" -- perhaps you were making a joke? If not, you should change the "What is PDA" page on your website, http://www.pdamerica.org/about/what-is-pda. If you really are small d, I bet a lot of people would join who are not currently members.
>>
>> KZ
>>
>> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 1:23 PM, tim carpenter <pdatimcarpenter at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Bruce why we say progressive first democrats second
>>
>> progressive democrats :-) ( small d)
>>
>>
>> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 7:00 AM, Global Network <globalnet at mindspring.com> wrote:
>> I am not one who is bored or tired with this discussion. I think one of the reasons we are in the mess we are in is because we do so little reflecting and have so few opportunities for nationwide strategic planning. We spend lots of time and energy putting out fires and chasing after one war or the other. Let's face it, it's a big country and we are up against massive corporate power and money. So I rather enjoy this back and forth, as god knows, I too am casting about for answers and new ways to build the peace and the needed revolution of values.
>>
>> I have very much appreciated the honest comments by local organizers who share similar difficulties trying to keep organizing alive as people continue to give Obama and his party a pass. It was much the same during the time of Clinton. But then once Bush II stole his first election many of the sheep came back to the flock.
>>
>> Our most successful organizing in Maine, and in the northeast during the past year or so, has been around the theme of Bring Our War $$ Home. This has enabled us to reach out more effectively to the unions, teachers, poor people's groups, and the like.
>>
>> It is a blessing, and a curse, that we are a fragmented movement in this huge nation. It becomes difficult to move as one - though our fragmentation allows us to reach into many corners. One thing that encourages me is that despite our mainstream media blackout, still 60% of the American people agree that we should get out of Afghanistan. So on some level our message is getting out there. The need now is to move that 60% to take some kind of action. That will only happen when they feel doing so benefits them in some way. Thus the importance of making the connections between endless war and fiscal crisis at home.
>>
>> The 46 states in fiscal crisis today total debt comes to $130 billion. The Pentagon will spend about $170 billion just this year on our wars in Iraq-Afghanistan-Pakistan-Libya. We have a strong case to make that teacher, firemen, and police layoffs could be averted - school, library, public hospital closings could be averted - social program cuts could all be averted if we end these wars now.
>>
>> It is absolutely true that the Democrats (with a few noble exceptions) don't want to do this. I agree with the others who have said we must have a peace movement that is independent of any political party. Loyalty should go to movement first and party second. Build the movement and the politicians will follow. To try to do it in the reverse order is a strategic mistake.
>>
>> Bruce K. Gagnon
>> Coordinator
>> Global Network Against Weapons & Nuclear Power in Space
>> PO Box 652
>> Brunswick, ME 04011
>> (207) 443-9502
>> globalnet at mindspring.com
>> www.space4peace.org
>> http://space4peace.blogspot.com/ (blog)
>>
>>
>> Thank God men cannot fly, and lay waste the sky as well as the earth. ~Henry David Thoreau
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tim Carpenter
>> Director Progressive Democrats of America (PDA)
>> pdamerica.org
>> Facebook: facebook.com/PDAmerica
>> Become a ¢hange makes CHANGE sustainer: https://www.pdamerica.org/payments/give/donate
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
> --
> =============== Keep On Keepin' On Carl Davidson 'If you don't have a strategy, you're part of someone else's strategy.' - Alvin Toffler Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/carldavidson Check out our newletter E-letter: http://tinyurl.com/ccdslinks
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> --
> Tim Carpenter
> Director Progressive Democrats of America (PDA)
> pdamerica.org
> Facebook: facebook.com/PDAmerica
> Become a ¢hange makes CHANGE sustainer: https://www.pdamerica.org/payments/give/donate
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> --
> Tim Carpenter
> Director Progressive Democrats of America (PDA)
> pdamerica.org
> Facebook: facebook.com/PDAmerica
> Become a ¢hange makes CHANGE sustainer: https://www.pdamerica.org/payments/give/donate
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