[Peace-discuss] [Discuss] [sf-core] Re: [CentralILJwJ] Fw: [OccupyCU] Fwd: [cchcc-l] Gov. Quinn Announces State-Federal Partnership Health Exchange

Tue Jul 31 19:49:39 UTC 2012

I think it was Ricky who used to include a signature line from Maggie Kuhn: "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." 

You apparently think that that should be disregarded if one's voice shakes with "sarcastic negativity"....

On Jul 31, 2012, at 2:04 PM, Germaine Light <lightport at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Carl, you are insufferably mean,  & egotistical, and you treat my good friends horribly!  Your sarcastic negativity about so many things is BORING & does nothing good for the things people are trying hard to accomplish.  You can stop this abuse of our good comrades and our local movement NOW! 
> Sent from my iPhone
> Germaine 
> 
> On Jul 31, 2012, at 1:34 PM, "Carl G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
> 
>> I'm astonished at the severity of the burdens I've laid upon you, Ricky.
>> 
>> I hope you can bear up under such suffering.  --CGE
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 31, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Ricky Baldwin <rbaldwin at seiu73.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> It actually adds up, Carl, when the responses keep coming and coming and coming and the discussion is happening on 3-4 email lists.  It isn't just the time, it's the constant interruption - from work, for some of us, for example.  "Peace-discuss" is a forum for such discussion, one could argue.  Maybe Socialist Forum.  Not JWJ's email list definitely.
>>> 
>>> And I think it's disingenuous to cite Orwell in this context, actually.  But perhaps you are serious.  I'm thinking Neil is, because so many people have expressed the same thought in similar contexts over the years - of which you are no doubt aware.  Your time may be unlimited, sir, but not so for others.  I was at work from 9am until midnight last night doing little things like fighting an unjust discharge at UI for a member - two discharges actually - preparing for another case, preparing for negotiations against the greedy, smug, and self-righteous once-land-grant University that has largely shut out working class students and preys upon its own workforce.  I do not have time to respond to all this, though I disagree strongly with much of it and I really hate to see such wrongheadedness go unanswered.  I feel strongly that healthcare should be a human right and that war is a social evil, that no candidates measure up but that we must vote for someone or we lose an opportun
>>> ity to have an effect, however small.  I doubt that in a race such as Gill's, foreign policy is actually much at issue.  Tim Johnson performed his calculus and Gill will perform his if he wins; our objective should be the same (I say "our" even though I haven't devoted much time to the anti-war effort recently; I still support the goal, as I have all my life.)  
>>> 
>>> And, no, by the way, how they vote is not the only point.  It is a favorite strategy of disingenuous politicians to vote against the clear majority when it makes no difference, just to lay claim to false ground.  Others may withhold a vote on the grounds that it would be symbolic.  The common denominator is what they gain or lose politically from the decision.  We are right to raise the cost of voting badly, but let us not kid ourselves.  A safe vote by a virtually untouchable incumbent does not compare to a risky statement from a three-time loser in a tough race.
>>> 
>>> But strategy and planning take time, I know.  I have to go into it more later, if I can, with apologies.  But I really think that bickering on the internet is hardly the way to strategize productively.  There is a war on many fronts right now - against the poor, against workers, against our children, against the environment we must inhabit ...  We must all choose where to focus, but we may still want to help where we can.  We just don't want to be flooded with multiple emails on the same argument, the same as the last 8-10 years or so on the "peace-discuss" list, -- but now that so many people have been driven off that list, must we endure the same treatment on 2-3 other lists at the same time?
>>> 
>>> If we care about any of this, the way to address it, the only real way as far as I can tell, is to organize.  Publishing these opinions I suppose you might list separately, but I would still argue that the goal of that would be to encourage organizing as well.  But organizing is about finding people who agree with you, getting together and planning, and building something bigger, not just eroding the organizations that exist, none of which are perfect but in this case all of which have done great work and have the potential to do more.
>>> 
>>> This isn't the same thing at all as what Orwell meant, by the way.  I suspect, though I do not know, that he did not mean stuffing people's mailboxes with unwanted mail (numerous and repetitive), or phoning them incessantly about the same subject once they have expressed a desire for it to stop, or banging on their doors over and over.  He wasn't known for such behavior.  You wouldn't do these things, either, I believe.  But email lists blast out unwanted email to dozens so easily that it may seem different - but it is roughly equivalent. The analogy is not perfect, I admit, but I suspect Orwell meant public speaking - indoors or outdoors, publishing articles or letters or newspapers or pamphlets or books, tabling at the Farmers' Market, demonstrating, etc.
>>> 
>>> These lists are mainly populated by people who share basic goals and are willing to devote time, energy, money, to the causes.  This thread has not been in aid of that, in my opinion.  You probably disagree, but I will not keep it going for now.  I do not have time.  I ask that it not continue on multiple lists at once.  "Peace-discuss" seems the logical place for it.  JWJ's list is not it, not being a discussion list at all really, but mainly for announcements and minimal discussion.  I will do my best to write up something about the approach i see working that I hope will be constructive.  But i cannot do it now.  I have to run.   
>>> 
>>> There should be at least 36 hours in a day, in my opinion.
>>> 
>>> Ricky 
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: C. G. Estabrook [cge at shout.net]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 9:53 AM
>>> To: Neil Parthun
>>> Cc: Germaine Light; JWJ C-U; sf-core; C-U Citzens for Peace and Justice; astridjb at comcast.net; Ricky Baldwin; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Discuss] [sf-core] Re: [CentralILJwJ] Fw: [OccupyCU] Fwd: [cchcc-l] Gov. Quinn Announces State-Federal Partnership Health Exchange
>>> 
>>> Neil--
>>> 
>>> You don't want to "waste time" by pushing the delete key? That sounds a bit disingenuous.
>>> 
>>> I think good liberals often raise objections like this to postings to political discussion lists when truths distasteful to liberal orthodoxy - like the criminality of Barack Obama - are expressed.
>>> 
>>> Solidarity?  --CGE
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jul 30, 2012, at 11:05 PM, Neil Parthun <lennybrucefan at gmail.com<mailto:lennybrucefan at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Carl -
>>> 
>>> There is a difference between Orwell's statement and some damned netiquette.
>>> 
>>> Responses to people off list emails do not need to be re-broadcast to the entire flippin' list. They are off-list responses and should be dealt with as such.
>>> 
>>> And yes, I do have a very active delete button but don't appreciate having to waste time because people can't follow some basic netiquette guidelines.
>>> 
>>> Solidarity,
>>> -N.
>>> ------------
>>> Fighting for people...its what its all about. - my mom, Linda Parthun
>>> 
>>> Neil Parthun :: lennybrucefan at gmail.com<mailto:lennybrucefan at gmail.com> :: @wobblyneil
>>> Host, Not Another Sports Show, a Radical Look at Sports
>>> Show Site<http://notanothersportsshow.podbean.com/> :: iTunes<http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/not-another-sports-show/id346493636> :: Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/pages/Not-Another-Sports-Show-a-Radical-Look-at-Sports/223593931016061> :: Twitter<http://www.twitter.com/wobblyneil>
>>> 
>>> Co-host, Untitled Wrestling Show
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
>> 