[Peace-discuss] a note on Holocaust denial

Sat Nov 24 16:31:00 UTC 2012

David,

What puzzles me, and maybe you can enlighten me on this, is how 
neo-liberal /neo-conservative Israeli government apologists like Gehrig, can honestly with a straight face, call Jewish people who are critical of the actions of the government of Israel " self-hating Jews " and " anti-semites " ???
I guess if Gehrig accuses you of either, that would put you in the noble and honored category as Norman Finkelstein and several of the survivors / fighters of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising who spoke out against the bombing of Gaza.

David Johnson
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Green 
  To: David Gehrig ; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net 
  Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 8:53 PM
  Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] a note on Holocaust denial

  "It has its own local Patient Zero."

  Who might that be?

  I've been quite clear (per Chomsky & Finkelstein) about the fact that inappropriate emphasis on the power of the Israel Lobby borders on anti-semitism--not the kind that will actually bring harm to Jews, but the kind that will discredit the Palestinian cause, as well as distract Americans interested in that cause from the nature of the workings of their own support for Israel in the Middle East.

  There are some on the left who can be fairly accused of professing "the socialism of fools." Nevertheless, there is an overwhelming tendency to carefully separate criticism of Israel from criticism of Jews--to a fault.

  Then there are those who profess the liberalism of fools. In the 1960s, some of these were honest enough to begin to call themselves neoconservatives, and display their imperial mentality for all to see. Others cling to the hope that the existence of the "new anti-semitism" on the left will vindicate their support for Israel, and U.S. foreign policy in general, as some sort of a humanitarian mission.

  Most liberal Jews, now repelled by Netanyahu and those to his right, find themselves confused and silenced. They vote for Obama on the basis of identity politics.

  Please keep me informed on how the witchhunt for anti-semites on the left is proceeding. From what I hear, the fascists in Greece, Hungary, and Florida like to wave the Israeli flag. That isn't at all surprisng, given the legacy of Israel's relationship with apartheid South Africa. When it comes to digging up some non-Muslim anti-semites, the left is pretty much all that's left. They won't find many, so they'll have to invent them. Maybe the F.B.I. can train some informants to pay mentally ill leftists to say nasty things about Jews.

  I would add that David Gehrig has stooped so low as to enter comments using my name on the Daily Illini website to try to frame me as an anti-semite. On that basis, even beyond his comments here, he can't be taken seriously.

  I predict that you won't be hearing from him on this list anymore, and not be because of any censorship.

  David Green

    From: David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org>
    To: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net 
    Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 6:12 PM
    Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] a note on Holocaust denial

    All I can say is, wow.

    Folks, it's really very simple.

    There is a forty-year-old strain of antisemitic propaganda which started with the fascist right and is now reshaping itself to build an audience on the left.

    It has made its first appearance on the left here in CU.

    It has its own local Patient Zero.

    I was hoping for at least one response that actually addressed the topic directly, but apparently I was being too optimistic.

    If I were asked, point blank, whether this list actually cares about antisemitism in CU as anything other than a trigger for pre-cooked tirades, at this point I'd have to say no, not to any noticeable degree, except apparently as a springboard to launch into a discussion about the JFK assassination.

    Like I said -- wow.

    @%<

    On 2012-11-23 12:21, David Johnson wrote:
    > " Spending 15 years studying Holocuast denial, JFK conspiracy
    > theories & 9/11 conspiracy theories, etc. should be seen as a waste of
    > time and a distraction by anyone who is serious about the real
    > problems in the world. "
    > 
    > NORMAN FINKELSTEIN HAS WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY ABOUT THIS PHENOMENA,
    > THAT  BEING " THE HOLOCAUST INDUSTRY ", THAT HAS NOT ONLY MADE CERTAIN
    > PEOPLE MONEY BUT HAS MORE IMPORTENTLY, AS YOU DESCRIBED DAVID, BEEN
    > USED TO DISTRACT AND JUSTIFY THE NAZI LIKE BEHAVIOUR OF THE ISRAELI
    > GOVERNMENT.
    > 
    > IN TERMS OF THE JFK ASSASINATION AND THE 9/11 ATTACK FACTS, AS
    > OPPOSED TO THEORIES OR GOVERNMANT COVER-UPS LIKE THE BUSH APPOINTED
    > 9/11 COMMISION AND THE WARREN COMMISSION, I WOULD RESPECTFULLY
    > DISAGREE.
    > KENNEDY ASSASINATION, M.L. KING ASSASINATION, MALCOLM X ASSASINATION,
    > AND THE 9/11 ATTACK FACTS SHOULD BE STUDIED AND DISCUSSED ALONG WITH
    > DOCUMENTED FACTS OF : COINTELPRO, CIA SPONSORED COUPS AND
    > ASSASINATIONS, RIGGED ELECTONS, FALSE FLAG ACTIONS, ETC..
    > THE IMPORTENCE IS TWO FOLD ;
    > 1) TO KNOW WHAT THE U.S. GOVERNMENT HAS DONE IN THE PAST ON BEHALF OF
    > THE 1 %, SO THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL KNOW AND HENCE NOT BELIEVE
    > THE LIES OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, ETC.. TO JUSTIFY MILITARY
    > ACTIONS AND THE ABUSE OF CIVIL LIBERTIES.
    > 2) WHEN DEALING WITH ANY GROUP OF CRIMINALS LIKE THE U.S, RULING
    > CLASS 1%, ONE MUST KNOW THEIR M.O., WHICH WILL ALSO ALLOW THE AMERICAN
    > PEOPLE TO KNOW WHAT TO EXPECT AND HOPEFULLY HOW TO PREVENT / DEAL WITH
    > IT IN THE FUTURE.
    > 
    > OF COURSE SINCE 9/11 2001 THE RULING CLASS AND THE CORPORATE MEDIA
    > HAS DONE AN EXTENSIVE PROPOGANDA CAMPAIGN TO CONVINCE MANY PEOPLE IN
    > THE U.S. THAT ANY ACCUSATION ( NO MATTER HOW WELL DOCUMENTED )
    > OF COLLABORATION / MISDEEDS BY THE WEALTHY AND POWERFUL IS "
    > CONSPIRACY THEORY " AND HENCE NOT TRUE.
    > AS IF THE WEALTHY AND THE POWERFUL DON'T COORDINATE ACTIONS OR EVEN
    > TALK TO EACH OTHER.
    > 
    > I DO AGREE DAVID THAT ONE SHOULD NOT SPEND TOO MUCH TIME DWELLING ON
    > THESE SORT OF THINGS, HOWEVER TO IGNORE THE CRIMINAL HISTORY AND PAST
    > PRACTICES OF THE 1 % RULING CLASS IS AT OUR OWN PERIL.
    > 
    > DAVID JOHNSON
    > 
    >> ----- Original Message -----
    >> FROM: David Green
    >> TO: peace-discuss
    >> SENT: Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:47 PM
    >> SUBJECT: Re: [Peace-discuss] a note on Holocaust denial
    >> 
    >> The denial that I'm worried about is, among many other things, regarding the willful and planned Israeli ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, begun in earnest in 1947 and continuing at the present time. It's important, because it's widespread and politically consequential.
    >> 
    >> The small cult of Holocaust denial has had to be exaggerated out of all proportion, partly in order to justify Israeli depredations, as well as to distract attention from ongoing American-sponsored atrocities around the world.
    >> 
    >> Chomsky says that in the U.S., we have done the right thing by not suppressing Holocaust denial, as they have in some countries in Europe. Suppression and illegality only attracts more attention to the phenomenon. In the U.S., people are allowed to deny the Holocaust, they're recognized as lunatics, and nobody cares except a few individuals like Deborah Lipstadt who have made careers out of exaggerating the problem.
    >> 
    >> Spending 15 years studying Holocuast denial, JFK conspiracy theories & 9/11 conspiracy theories, etc. should be seen as a waste of time and a distraction by anyone who is serious about the real problems in the world.
    >> 
    >> But Holocaust denial has served well those who continue to deny what Israel has become--of course, only with the help of American support.
    >> 
    >>> FROM: David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org>
    >>> TO: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
    >>> SENT: Thursday, November 22, 2012 2:37 PM
    >>> SUBJECT: [Peace-discuss] a note on Holocaust denial
    >>> 
    >>> Folks, some thoughts on Holocaust denial, from someone who's studied it for fifteen years. It's going only to peace-discuss.
    >>> 
    >>> I think some background would be helpful here.
    >>> 
    >>> Holocaust denial is a conspiracy theory of neo-Nazi origins claiming that literally millions of Jews have secretly collaborated on a global fraud orders of magnitude larger and more complex than any James Bond villain could even dream of.
    >>> 
    >>> Intellectually, it's on par with the folks who think that NASA and Stanley Kubrick faked the moon landing. But on top of its idiocy, it adds a thick, wide, and inescapable layer of antisemitic wackdoodlism.
    >>> 
    >>> Here's what I mean. The Watergate scandal involved under fifty conspirators, was protected by the most powerful man in the world, but it still rattled apart in just two years. The conspiracy theory that Holocaust deniers push requires not fifty Jews, not five hundred Jews, not five thousand Jews, not fifty thousand Jews, not five hundred thousand Jews, but five million Jews -- roughly a quarter of the world's Jewish population -- to stick impeccably to a criminal script flawlessly for over sixty years. As such, it ascribes to the Jews an inexplicable and inhuman capacity for criminality of the largest imaginable dimensions.
    >>> 
    >>> What would you say to someone who tells you that one quarter of all people of Italian descent are active in the Cosa Nostra? You would rightly assail his idiocy, his paranoia, and his bigotry. Yet this is not that different from what Holocaust deniers claim about the world's Jews.
    >>> 
    >>> It is like a burning cross. There is no dignified way to turn your eyes and pretend you didn't see it when it happens in your own town.
    >>> 
    >>> If there is interest, I'd be happy to give a talk on the topic -- its neo-Nazi origins, and its attempt in the mid-2000's to repaint itself as "anti-Zionist" rather than "pro-Adolf" in order to try recruiting on the progressive left, while telling exactly the same lies. Few on the left have been fooled. But, as we have learned locally, few is not none.
    >>> 
    >>> David @%<
    >>> _______________________________________________
    >>> Peace-discuss mailing list
    >>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
    >>> http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss [1]
    >> 
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