[Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Fw: Holocaust Industry
Stephen Francis
stephenf1113 at yahoo.com
Sun Jul 28 00:22:59 UTC 2013
This is a reply to the local community excluding David Gehrig.
I'm no expert on Zionist or Jewish history, but have studied it extensively.
I just want to express my support for the following groups listed below.
It only took a few minutes to put this list together. I'm sure I could find hundreds more.
I am not religious so have no interest in these groups in a religious sense, but do believe they are sincere about their faith and their faith is more important to them than power and wealth. Unlike the Zionists.
I will not go into a long discourse other that list some the websites that I admire and respect about this issue:
http://www.nkusa.org/
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/satmar.htm
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/
http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-against-zionism.html
http://www.truetorahjews.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Council_for_Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_Against_Zionism_(book)
Thank You
Steve Francis
________________________________
From: David Johnson <dlj725 at hughes.net>
To: Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; occupycu at lists.chambana.net
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 4:08 PM
Subject: [OccupyCU] Fw: [Peace-discuss] Holocaust Industry
----- Original Message -----
From: David Johnson
To: David Gehrig
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Holocaust Industry
Mr. Gehrig,
You have NO credibility based on your past and
present actions !
A perfect case in point is how you distorted one
of my recent e-mail replys and took one sentence out of complete context to
imply that ;
" I do not give a shit about three million
people ",
when what my e-mail stated in it;s entirety
was that " who gives a shit about rather the Nazi holocaust was three million or
6-million, it was a horribhle atrocity that should always be condemed, BUT
what about the atrocities currently happening around the world,
perprtrated NOT by a muderous government 70 years ago, but by the CURRENT
U.S. and Israeli governments !
If what you are saying about Stephen
Francis's posts are true, that the source for a segment on his website is a
neo-Nazi , than I would agree that Stephen should " keep his hand out of the
Neo-Nazi cookie jar ", in regard to that particular
source.
You have accused me of " jumping all over the
place ", but you are the one who will NOT answer direct questiions and
always divert the subject to " anti-semitism ", your anti-semitism card has
become a little worn and discredited !
Since you have been posting for some time now
on the Occupy and Peace Discuss lists on and off as you troll and lurk in the
shadows, I have NOT seen you post ONE ITEM in support of the principles of
the Occupy Movement against the Neo-Conservative / Neo-Liberal agenda
!
Also, I have NOT seen you post a SINGLE item
against ; the invasion and continued occupation of Afganistan or Iraq, or
against drome strikes murdering innocent women and children and men
non-combatents in Afganistan, Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan
etc.
Not to mention..... And I am sure you will call me
anti-semetic for this statement, I don't give a shit. But... What about
the crimes against humanity that the current government of Israel are commiting
and have been commiting for decades now against the Palastinian people
!
Now I see you are attacking Norman Finkelstein,
which speaks volumes !
So my question to you is
simple....
What the fuck are you doing on these lists except
to attempt to disrupt and discredit activists who are fighting the neo-FASCIST
Neo-liberal powers that be that are committing genocide as we speak
!
You seemed obssesed with Fascists and crimes
against humanity that happened 70 years ago, what about the atrocities that are
happening TODAY !
AGAIN, why don't you come out of the shadows
and debate me publicly ?
David Johnson
----- Original Message -----
>From: David Gehrig
>To: David Johnson
>Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 5:08 PM
>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Holocaust Industry
>
>
>Once again, I have removed Occupy CU from the reply list, as
>it is not a discussion list.
>
>What
follows is, among other things, not just a big lazy
>slab of cut-and-paste
from Wikipedia.
>
>Finkelstein is in many ways deeply flawed academic --
his
>tendentious take on Lipstadt is, frankly, too removed from
>reality
to take seriously -- but he did hit on something
>that needed to be said:
anti-Zionism is not, per se, always
>a form of antisemitism, and bogus
claims of antisemitism are
>indeed used as a weapon against
anti-Zionism.
>
>Too bad he stopped there.
>
>Unfortunately, it soon
became clear that all too many people
>-- including ones on this list --
extrapolated Finkelstein's
>statement into a much broader one: that every
claim that any
>anti-Zionist is also an antisemite as well must be
by
>definition false, cannot possibly be true, and should be
>shouted down
as loudly and derisively as possible. It is no
>more possible to be an
antisemitic anti-Zionist than it is
>to be a square circle, they said; other
than a few
>curiousities and freakazoids here and there, it just
can't
>happen.
>
>Well, as any student of Jewish history can tell you,
what
>happens when you red-line an area in which people are
>politically
committed a priori to seeing no antisemitism? Up
>come the charlatans --
antisemites who see an audience ripe
>for the plucking. All these guys have
to do is just
>substitute the word "Zionist" every time they would
have
>previously used the word "Jew," and at least some
uncritical
>anti-Zionists will just slurp it up, every last
anti-Jewish
>stereotype in it, and beg for more, convinced that it's
not
>antisemitism but anti-Zionism.
>
>After the catastrophic defeat of
Holocaust denier David
>Irving in the London courtroom in 2000 (a trial in
which, as
>it happens, every one of Stephen's
ridiculous
>neo-Nazi-originated claims about the Holocaust gas
chambers
>were addressed and decisively refuted), the Holocaust
denial
>movement made a conscious decision to repaint themselves as
>not
anti-Jewish but "anti-Zionist *wink wink*".
>
>As you can see, that was a
surprisingly successful move for
>them.
>
>What did it take to get
Stephen quoting neo-Fascist
>publishers like the IHR and neo-Nazis like
Zündel? All they
>had to do is call themselves "anti-Zionist," and
suddenly
>people like Stephen couldn't wait to carry their water, oh
>boy
oh boy.
>
>All through this discussion, people like the Johnsons
and
>Stephen have tried to force everything into the tiny little
>box in
which everything is determined by the circa-2000
>Finkelstein reflex. In
doing so, they have all along missed
>what the discussion is actually
about.
>
>Is anti-Zionism antisemitic? Relying solely on
the
>Finkelstein-2000 reflex demands you answer "no." But
>thirteen years
after Finkelstein, we've seen that this snap
>answer isn't really quite
sufficient. The answer is neither
>"yes" nor "no," but "depends on the
individual case."
>Holocaust denial isn't anti-Zionism, it's
antisemitism
>trying to pass itself off as anti-Zionism. If you have
no
>room in your mental framework for that distinction, then
>your mental
framework is inadequate, and you are ripe for
>picking by the Zündels of the
world.
>
>As we have seen.
>
>Combatting Holocaust denial is something
everyone should
>agree on. Most anti-Zionists know that they have nothing
to
>gain from neo-Nazi Ernst Zündel videos. But, as you can see
>here,
there are those who haven't gotten to that point yet
>-- and will apparently
fight screaming every step along the
>road to enlightenment.
>
>I have
tried to get a few people here another step down the
>path. Only time will
tell if they take it.
>
>@%<
>
>On Jul 27, 2013, at 11:34 AM,
"David Johnson" <dlj725 at hughes.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering is a 2000 book by Norman G. Finkelstein that argues that the American Jewish establishment exploits the memory of the Nazi Holocaust for political and financial gain, as well as to further the interests of Israel.[1] According to Finkelstein, this "Holocaust industry" has corrupted Jewish culture and the authentic memory of the Holocaust.
>>
>>Finkelstein states that his consciousness of "the Nazi holocaust" is rooted in his parents' experiences in the Warsaw ghetto; with the exception of his parents themselves, "every family member on both sides was exterminated by the Nazis".[2] Nonetheless, during his childhood, no one ever asked any questions about what his mother and father had suffered. He suggests, "This was not a respectful silence. It was indifference."[2] It was only after the establishment of "the Holocaust industry", he suggests, that outpourings of anguish over the plight of the Jews in World War II began. This ideology in turn served to endow Israel with a status as "'victim' state" despite its "horrendous" human rights record.[2]
>>According to Finkelstein, his book is "an anatomy and an indictment of the Holocaust industry". He argues that "'The Holocaust' is an ideological representation of the Nazi holocaust".[3]
>>In the foreword to the first paperback edition, Finkelstein notes that the first hardback edition had been a considerable hit in several European countries and many languages, but had been panned in the US. He sees The New York Times as the main promotional vehicle of the "Holocaust industry", and notes that the 1999 Index listed 273 entries for the Holocaust and just 32 entries for the entire continent of Africa.
>>Chapters
>> * Chapter 1: Capitalizing The Holocaust - by the 1980s, Finkelstein states, the "War against the Jews" had become more important to American cultural life than the "War Between the States".(p. 11)
>> * Chapter 2: Hoaxers, Hucksters and History - in 1967, Finkelstein claims that two concepts appeared in public discourse: The uniqueness of the Holocaust, and the concept of the Holocaust as climax of a historical irrational anti-Semitic tendency in Europe. Finkelstein asserts that these concepts became central to the "Holocaust Industry", but that neither figures in scholarship of the Nazi Holocaust.(p. 13)
>> * Chapter 3: The Double Shakedown - in this chapter, Finkelstein claims that the number of Jewish survivors of the Holocaust recognized by relief groups increased from c. 100,000 in 1945[4] to nearly 1 million[5] owing to definitional changes in who was considered to be a survivor. Because of this, Finkelstein repeatedly asserts that "fraudulent" claims were made on Switzerland, while accounts and assets in the US and Israel were ignored. Payments were made to the wrong people and real survivors lost out.
>>The second (2003) edition contained 100 pages of new material, primarily in chapter 3 on the Swiss Banks lawsuit. Finkelstein set out to provide a guide to the relevant sections of the case. He feels that the presiding judge elected not to docket crucial documents, and that the Claims Resolution Tribunal could no longer be trusted. Finkelstein claims the CRT was on course to vindicate the Swiss banks before it changed tack in order to "protect the blackmailers' reputation".
>>Other topics
>>Fraudulent writings on the Holocaust
>>Finkelstein describes two known frauds, that of The Painted Bird by Polish writer Jerzy Kosinski and Fragments by Binjamin Wilkomirski, and how they were defended by people even after they'd been exposed. He identifies some of these people as members of the "Holocaust Industry", and notes that they also support each other. Elie Wiesel supported Kosinski; Israel Gutman and Daniel Goldhagen (see below) supported Wilkomirski; Wiesel and Gutman support Goldhagen.
>>Holocaust Industry defends itself
>>Finkelstein has published heavy criticisms of several books in his career, as he did to Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Johnah Goldhagen, which he calls "replete with gross misinterpretations of source material and internal contradictions", and says "the book is devoid of scholarly value". Independently, Ruth Bettina Birn (the world's leading authority on the archives that Goldhagen had consulted and chief historian for War Crimes with the Canadian Department of Justice) did the same - she and Finkelstein worked together on A Nation on Trial: The Goldhagen Thesis and Historical Truth. Goldhagen refused the journal's invitation for a full rebuttal, and instead enlisted a London law firm to sue Birn and the Cambridge University Press. Protests were made to Birn's employer, calling her "a member of the perpetrator race" (she is German-born), prompting an official investigation of her.(p. 66)
>>Other genocides
>>Finkelstein scathingly compared the media treatment of the Holocaust and the media treatment of other genocides such as the Holodomor and the Armenian Genocide, particularly by members of what he calls "The Holocaust Industry". (1 to 1.5 million Armenians died in the years between 1915 and 1917/1923 - denial includes the claim that they were the result of a Civil War within World War I, or refusal to accept there were deaths). In 2001, Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres went so far as to dismiss it as "allegations". However, by this time historical consensus was changing, and he was "angrily compared ... to a holocaust denier" by Dr Charny, executive director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem.[6]
>>In August 2007, the Elie Wiesel Foundation for Humanity produced a letter signed by 53 Nobel Laureates re-affirming the Genocide Scholars' conclusion that the 1915 killings of Armenians constituted genocide.[7] However, Wiesel's organization asserted there would be no legal "basis for reparations or territorial claims", anticipating Turkish anxieties that it could prompt financial or property claims. Abraham Foxman of the Anti-Defamation League announced: "Upon reflection, the consequences of those actions were indeed tantamount to genocide".[8]
>>Other forms of Holocaust denial
>>According to Finkelstein, Elie Wiesel characterizes any suggestion that he has profited from the "Holocaust Industry", or even any criticism at all, as Holocaust denial.[9] Questioning a survivor's testimony, denouncing the role of Jewish collaborators, suggesting that Germans suffered during the bombing of Dresden or that any state except Germany committed crimes in World War II are all evidence of Holocaust denial – according to Deborah Lipstadt[10] – and the most "insidious" forms of Holocaust denial are "immoral equivalencies", denying the uniqueness of The Holocaust.[11] Finkelstein examines the implications of applying this standard to another member of the "Holocaust Industry", Daniel Goldhagen, who argued that Serbian actions in Kosovo "are, in their essence, different from those of Nazi Germany only in scale".[12]
>>Holocaust deniers in real life
>>Further information: Armenian Genocide recognition and Holocaust denial
>>According to Finkelstein, Deborah Lipstadt claims there is widespread Holocaust denial - yet in "Denying the Holocaust" her prime example is Arthur Butz, author of The Hoax of the Twentieth Century. The chapter on him is entitled "Entering the Mainstream" - but Finkelstein considers that, were it not for the likes of Lipstadt, no one would ever have heard of Arthur Butz. Holocaust deniers have as much influence in the US as the Flat Earth Society (p. 69). Finkelstein believes there to be only one "truly mainstream" holocaust denier—Bernard Lewis, who was convicted in France of denying the Armenian genocide.[13] Since Lewis is pro-Israel, "this instance ... raises no hackles in the United States."
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