[Peace-discuss] [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
Stuart Levy
stuartnlevy at gmail.com
Fri Sep 20 21:49:41 UTC 2013
For what it's worth, I intend to spend some of my Sunday to go and
listen to what the speakers at this conference have to say, and maybe
ask a few questions.
I haven't taken the 9/11-truth movement very seriously, for the
following sort of reason: It may be interesting-if-true that a gov't
conspiracy was behind the destruction of the towers. But it's at best
hard to prove - as Ricky explained well - and I'd suggest that it really
doesn't change the situation much even if it *is* true. A better framing
might be: we already know that our gov't is perfectly willing to use
arbitrary violence on people all over the world - and on people in
prison, here. That should be a big deal for us. Would it really change
our position that much if we were more confident that that willingness
extended to "free" people within the US, too?
Regardless of who was behind those attacks, the lasting gov't *response*
to them - the GWOT, the vast expansion of the "security" state, the
cultivation of fear and dismantling of civil liberties - is
uncontested. I don't much care whether that was a matter of taking
advantage of an opportunity, or creating their own.
In any case, some good friends of mine on this list do take the 9/11
truth issue seriously. It doesn't cost me much to spend a few hours
listening to people talk about it.
A few years ago Wayne Johnson and some others organized a Liberty Fest
in southern IL, bringing together a bunch of not-too-conventional
people, many of whom might identify themselves with the Tea Party if
asked, but others as well, including some Green Party candidates like
Rich Whitney. I went to hear what they had to say. Some people were
appallingly off the wall (e.g. one guy who claimed that no part of the
US was short of water, that environmental regulation was a liberal plot,
etc.), with some I could see common ground, some I liked a lot. I had
good conversations with people I wouldn't normally have tried to talk
with. That's how I see this conference. I'm looking forward to it.
Stuart
(P.S. If anyone proposes disbelieving the significance of the holocaust,
I'll (a) be surprised that it'd be raised in a 9/11 conference and (b)
incredulous but certainly (c) unconvinced. Fear not.)
On 9/20/13 12:37 PM, James Fetzer wrote:
> Ricky,
>
> How many of my books or articles have you bothered to read?
> I am dumbfounded that so many here seem to think that they
> can judge these issues WITHOUT BOTHERING TO STUDY
> THEM. I am at a loss over the apparent lack of rationality.
>
> If you can show I have something wrong, THEN PROVE IT!
>
> Jim
>
> P.S. I thought your comments were at least quasi-reasonable.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:29 AM, Ricky Baldwin
> <baldwinricky at yahoo.com <mailto:baldwinricky at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
> I haven't read Fetzer's book on the evolution of intelligence,
> which does interesting, but if I have read Chomsky's writings on
> the Kennedy assassination and 9/11, as well as a decent amount
> about Chomsky's linguistics, and I have to say I think Fetzer
> mischaracterizes Chomky's arguments badly.
> ...although not as badly as the offhand remark by Wayne below that
> Chomsky supposedly seems to support 'big government.' And you
> can't really talk about an idea unless you have a fair
> representation of it.
> Just for a brief example, Chomsky argues that US policy was fairly
> consistent on some major concerns before, during, and after the
> Kennedy Administration. Fetzer points to what Kennedy may have
> been going to do. Think about the difference. Ultimately, of
> course, I do not know what happened to Kennedy in 1963 for sure,
> but Chomsky makes a compelling case and not just about the
> supposed effect on policy. I'm not going through it all here.
> You can read it for yourself. Fetzer's comment at the end of this
> "rabbit hole" interview is a good one - he encourages people to
> find out what's going on for themselves, as does Chomsky. They
> also both encourage critical thinking, which is needed in this thread.
> Another important argument worth mentioning, though, about some of
> this type of what are generally known as 'conspiracy' theories -
> although Fetzer is correct that the official story about who
> brought down the Twin Towers is also a conspiracy, in fact - is
> the number of people who would be needed to keep it quiet
> and running smoothly. Andrew O Baoill mentions it below.
> The number of people who would have to be involved in keeping
> quiet the alleged faking of the moonshots is astronomical (no pun
> intended). But more importantly, the number of people Fetzer
> describes as keeping quiet about 9/11 is pretty incredible,
> too. First would the planning and execution of such an act - a
> hoax, mind you, on a scale that has never before been attempted as
> far as we know (and much smaller ones, like the Gulf of Tonkin and
> the weapons factory/baby formula destroyed by US cruise missile
> attack, have been found out). Such an undertaking would require
> an extensive network of conspirators in various part of the world
> just to get certain individuals on the planes, create phone
> conversations that could be intercepted, etc., hijack the planes
> and make it through various levels of security, and either load
> huge amounts of explosives and such into the towers past
> security (or with their collaboration, too?) or develope a
> theoretical version of nanothermite which includes unknown stuff
> at the atomic level or use an unknown material or keep all kinds
> of super weapons quiet. Such a thing could be just possible, but
> no good evidence of it exists, and since it's a pretty big claim,
> we'd want some pretty good evidence. There's an awful lot of
> speculation here mixed in with the questions about the official story.
> Everything would have to come off pretty much without a hitch,
> too, which defies experience with so many previous schemes that
> it's hard to even see how anyone could buy it. (The official
> story, by contrast, does include the ordinary human error we have
> come to expect. The third plane was diverted the hijackers
> couldn't control the passengers, a couple calls got out, fighters
> scrambled but didn't know where to go, etc.)
> Fetzer also claims in the "rabbit hole' interview that any
> structural or mechanical engineer with any training to speak of,
> or words to that effect, should know that the official account
> can't be even remotely correct - and that they are virtually ALL
> (thousands of people) keeping quiet because they are afraid
> they'll lose government contracts and the like. The 'truthers'
> are alway saying the official story is "not possible." Well, so
> was flight, breaking the sound barrier, and so on. Maybe it is,
> maybe it isn't. But which story is more feasible, the official
> story that a small conspiracy was able to crash three planes - two
> into their intended targets - and destroy big buildings and kill
> lots of people, or a much much larger conspiracy was able to not
> only do all that as well as fake such an event in plain view of
> the entire world, with the addition of engineering whatever is
> actually supposed to have brought the towers down?
> Given how many spy operations have been exposed recently - British
> spying on Belgian phones in the news today, reporters
> hacking famous people's phones, all the way back to Watergate and
> before - it seems hard to believe that there wouldn't be
> a squealer or just a little hard evidence of some of these things.
> OK, that's just a really big pile of questions, not proof that
> Fetzer's wrong. But for my 2c what he and the 9/11 'truthers' are
> asking us to believe is a lot bigger with a lot less evidence than
> the official story. That leaves me, anticlimatically, with the
> official story. We all saw it on TV. It sure looked like what
> the officials tell us. I read and watch Youtube to get what the
> 'truthers' say, and it just isn't good enough.
> Absent something better than what I've seen so far, I'd have to
> include the 'truther' movement with the 'birther' movement that is
> severely under-convincing.
> Ricky Baldwin
>
>
> "Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>
> *From:* James Fetzer <jfetzer at d.umn.edu <mailto:jfetzer at d.umn.edu>>
> *To:* E. Wayne Johnson ??? <ewj at pigsqq.org <mailto:ewj at pigsqq.org>>
> *Cc:* Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com
> <mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>>; "andrew at funferal.org
> <mailto:andrew at funferal.org>" <andrew at funferal.org
> <mailto:andrew at funferal.org>>; "sftalk at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:sftalk at yahoogroups.com>" <sftalk at yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:sftalk at yahoogroups.com>>;
> "peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>"
> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>; David Gehrig
> <david-cu at nukulele.org <mailto:david-cu at nukulele.org>>
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2013 11:37 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette
> article on 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
> It actually very simple. I am interested in evidence-based history.
> I resent the lies and the lying liars who feed them to the public,
> where they are aided and abetted by many exactly like Gehrig.
>
>
> *Fetzer on Chomsky*: Linguistics & 9/11 - *YouTube*
> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBsQtwIwAA&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w>
>
> ? 7:15
> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBwQuAIwAFAB&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w>
> www.*youtube*.com/watch?v=2gFB4VjcmJwAug 2, 2007 - 7 min -
> Uploaded by Yoryevrah
> James H. *Fetzer*, prof. of philosophy (U.of Minnesota, Duluth,
> ret.), critiques Noam *Chomsky's* *...*
>
>
> Dr. Jim *Fetzer*/ Noam *Chomsky's* faulty LINGUISTICS
> *...* - *YouTube*
> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCAQtwIwAQ&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA>
>
> ? 27:21
> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCEQuAIwAVAB&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA>
> www.*youtube*.com/watch?v=WKKDmuqMOaAApr 27, 2007 - 27 min -
> Uploaded by paulagloria
> Noam *Chomsky* has let down many truth activists and given clear
> indication of working with *...
>
> *
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2013 at 10:44 PM, "E. Wayne Johnson ???"
> <ewj at pigsqq.org <mailto:ewj at pigsqq.org>> wrote:
>
> Mr. Gehrig, like his idol and mentor Mr. ne'
> Heidler/Schickelgruber, is a really nice guy actually, just
> poorly understood as such. It is not appropriate to generalize
> from Gehrig and make somebody else's Kampf our own kampfire.
> But- The sinking of the Maine. The Kennedy assassination(s).
> The Gulf of Tonkin incident. The murder of MLKJr. The various
> nefarious acts of the CIA The 9/11 questions. etc., etc., etc.
> Mother, should I trust the Government? Chomsky et al seem to
> want better Government. Some of us think that no Government at
> all would be better, but it seems that Men are not ready for
> that. People like Fetzer do serve a useful function in the
> Society. They throw out a net and get many fishes, some good
> some bad. It's not up to veebleFetzer to sort them out.
> That's up to you the reader. Mr. Francis has seen the
> Government at some of its worst, up close, and personal-like.
> It's reasonable for him to mistrust it. The mime of disease in
> the amerikan society is something like the persistent
> infection produced by Pestiviruses. The host cant quite get
> pissed off enough to get rid of the infection, and the bug
> doesnt kill the host. The host gives birth to diseased and
> deformed and weakened offspring a percentage of which become
> persistently infected and maintain the infection through
> generations. Somehow the amerikan society gains various
> benefits from the memes and clings to the them, even defends
> the virus from threats.
> On 09/20/13 10:52, Stephen Francis wrote:
>> You've confirmed my point by making light of it...you have no
>> idea what those experiences bring to a person.
>> *From:* David Gehrig mailto:david-cu at nukulele.org
>> *To:* Stephen Francis mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com
>> *Cc:* mailto:sftalk at yahoogroups.com
>> mailto:sftalk at yahoogroups.com; mailto:andrew at funferal.org
>> mailto:andrew at funferal.org;
>> mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; Jim Fetzer
>> mailto:jfetzer at d.umn.edu
>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2013 7:07 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on
>> 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
>> What's disgraceful, Fetzer, is you.
>> I'd like to believe that at some point Steve will figure out
>> why. But as long as you keep him barking-mad up the wrong
>> tree, I don't expect it.
>> Also, by the way, Dr O-boyo, can I shoot at you? That will
>> render all of your opinions correct, apparently. Cheaper than
>> a second PhD!
>> @%<
>> On Sep 19, 2013, at 8:52 PM, Stephen Francis
>> <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com <mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>> From James Fetzer Ph.D.
>>> It is disgraceful to see an academician abuse his position
>>> to curtail
>>> debate on the most important event of the 21st C. by
>>> "installing
>>> filters". He dismisses my research WITHOUT EVEN STUDYING
>>> THE EVIDENCE. I am quite confident he has not read any of
>>> the links that I have provided about 9/11 or Sandy Hook or
>>> the Boston bombing, for example. By embracing the moon
>>> landings without
>>> considering the arguments, he is embracing the occurrence of
>>> a series of events that are neither physically nor
>>> aerodynamically possible--very much as THE 9/11 COMMISSION
>>> REPORT was based upon any number of additional
>>> impossibilities. This is the easy way out: avoid the
>>> evidence and the issues at all cost since they may show that
>>> beliefs he has entertained are indefensible.
>>> He does not even appreciate the hypocrisy in attacking me
>>> without bothering to study any of my arguments on any of
>>> these questions. I am overwhelmed with contempt for the
>>> contemptible fashion in which he obviates the standards of
>>> reason and rationality by the expedient of cutting off
>>> discussion and debate and adopting the ostrich policy. When
>>> there is too much heat, he shuts down the kitchen. The man
>>> is a perfect example of an intellectual bully and a coward
>>> who abuses his position to give a false impression of
>>> principle, when he is demonstrating that he possesses none.
>>> And that is manifest in his infatuation with Noam Chomsky,
>>> where he seems oblivious of his mentor's gross intellectual
>>> deficiencies:
>>>
>>>
>>> *Fetzer on Chomsky*: Linguistics & 9/11 - *YouTube*
>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBsQtwIwAA&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w>
>>>
>>> ? 7:15
>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D2gFB4VjcmJw&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CBwQuAIwAFAB&sig2=Y3d6Ng9d6rzMZJhpTO7D3g&usg=AFQjCNGem6eKja7dt5Kg7fN7bpzhbDc48w>
>>> www.*youtube*.com/watch?v=2gFB4VjcmJwAug 2, 2007 - 7 min -
>>> Uploaded by Yoryevrah
>>> James H. *Fetzer*, prof. of philosophy (U.of Minnesota,
>>> Duluth, ret.), critiques Noam *Chomsky's* *...*
>>>
>>>
>>> Dr. Jim *Fetzer*/ Noam *Chomsky's* faulty LINGUISTICS
>>> *...* - *YouTube*
>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCAQtwIwAQ&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA>
>>>
>>> ? 27:21
>>> <http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DWKKDmuqMOaA&sa=U&ei=yqA7UrnTN-nlyQHen4CwAg&ved=0CCEQuAIwAVAB&sig2=ei2yazg-wnPPI_iUwo63kA&usg=AFQjCNFdupSrkUFN1s3Ft1sIY29AmgrGfA>
>>> www.*youtube*.com/watch?v=WKKDmuqMOaAApr 27, 2007 - 27
>>> min - Uploaded by paulagloria
>>> Noam *Chomsky* has let down many truth activists and given
>>> clear indication of working with *...
>>>
>>> *
>>>
>>> Jim
>>> James H. Fetzer, Ph.D. McKnight Professor Emeritus
>>> University of Minnesota Duluth
>>> http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer <http://www.d.umn.edu/%7Ejfetzer>
>>> *From:* Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com
>>> <mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>>
>>> *To:* "sftalk at yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:sftalk at yahoogroups.com>" <sftalk at yahoogroups.com
>>> <mailto:sftalk at yahoogroups.com>>
>>> *Cc:* "david-cu at nukulele.org <mailto:david-cu at nukulele.org>"
>>> <david-cu at nukulele.org <mailto:david-cu at nukulele.org>>;
>>> "peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>"
>>> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>; Jim Fetzer
>>> <jfetzer at d.umn.edu <mailto:jfetzer at d.umn.edu>>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2013 5:34 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on
>>> 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
>>> You (Mr. Ó Baoill) speak so eloquently in your lofty address
>>> to the issues of the day. You and all your fellow
>>> Chomskyites speak the same language in that your really not
>>> communicating ideas but rather reinforcing each others
>>> Chomskyism. It must feel good and you are all so proud of
>>> yourselves as you flitter amongst prose that glitters in the
>>> eye. You've probably never been handcuffed and thrown down
>>> on the floor of a cage inside a dangerous prison because of
>>> your glittery flittery. You've never been shot at with
>>> rifles held by moronic souls who knew no better than to do
>>> what their daddy told em. You've never been hungry or felt
>>> the mad pounding in your chest as your heartbeat races
>>> knowing that your next word will mean freedom or jail.
>>> You've never seen the look on a grown man's face looking
>>> into the sentence on a official looking piece of paper that
>>> says Vietnam is your next home. You've never heard the
>>> screams of nightmares of groan men as they fight back the
>>> demons of heroin. Please continue with your Chomsky bedside
>>> manner and keep your eyes in the clouds of academic loft,
>>> because we know where the comfort of your words come from.
>>> *From:* Dr Andrew Ó Baoill <andrew at funferal.org
>>> <mailto:andrew at funferal.org>>
>>> *To:* sftalk at yahoogroups.com <mailto:sftalk at yahoogroups.com>
>>> *Cc:* david-cu at nukulele.org <mailto:david-cu at nukulele.org>;
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; Jim Fetzer
>>> <jfetzer at d.umn.edu <mailto:jfetzer at d.umn.edu>>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 19, 2013 4:14 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [sftalk] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on
>>> 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
>>> I was travelling, so my response on this is delayed.
>>> I've kept out of Truther threads for a variety of reasons,
>>> but I feel compelled to interject, in case silence be taken
>>> as implying consent and complicity. On 9/11 Trutherism, I've
>>> largely agreed with Chomsky's analysis - that the
>>> implication of a 'massive conspiracy' has too many moving
>>> parts to pass Occam's razor, and that in any event, it
>>> distracts from actually useful politics, as it heads down a
>>> rabbit hole. (Incidentally, I understand that there will be
>>> responses claiming that the the Truthers are agnostic on the
>>> question of a central conspiracy, that it's a grouping of
>>> analyses, etc. I'm not going to try to get into any of that
>>> because, frankly, I have neither the time nor interest.
>>> Hence, my silence until now, like, I suspect, many if my
>>> comrades on the list.)
>>> However, with this latest thread we move into both offensive
>>> and ridiculous territory. Ridiculous first: Stephen says
>>> that James 'Jim' Fetzer represents his views on every issue
>>> he can think of. Fetzer's summary of his own beliefs include
>>> a claim that Sandy Hook was staged to garner support for gun
>>> control. That's actually more offensive than ridiculous. I
>>> trust the sane members of this list don't need me to
>>> elaborate. On a lighter note Fetzer, bless his soul, clings
>>> to his belief that the moon landings were staged. That one I
>>> did laugh at. I'll jump to my main point: I'm implementing
>>> filters to block and 'send to trash' all future mail from
>>> Mr. Francis (and, pre-emptively, Mr. Fetzer). It saps my
>>> time, energy, and the value I get from the Socialist Forum
>>> lists. I suspect that others have done similarly. This mail
>>> is not an attempt or offer to enter into dialogue with
>>> Francis or his like. The method of debate of professed
>>> generalized conspiracy theorists fails several of the basic
>>> rules of debate, including the building of trust with other
>>> participants, a desire to reach consensus with those of
>>> disparate approaches, and a rational approach to argument. I
>>> feel it important, though, to first go on record, so Mr.
>>> Francis and his ilk not be able read silence as acceptance.
>>> Fetzer's Holocaust 'revisionism' is anti-semitic (and, more
>>> broadly, anti-humanist), in that it distracts from central
>>> questions about the totalizing violence and hatred that
>>> drove the 'final solution' with evasive and quibbling side
>>> issues that provide a nod and a wink to fellow anti-semites,
>>> while leaving just enough room for deniability. Fetzer is
>>> gracious enough to acknowledge 'abuse' by the Nazis, but
>>> notably goes no further - and this is his own defense to a
>>> critical audience. There are some attempts to muddy the
>>> water, to mimic actual scholarship that seeks to add nuance
>>> and critical analysis to narratives of the period, but to my
>>> mind, after viewing Fetzer's own summary of his approach,
>>> the distinction is clear. In addition, as Belden helpfully
>>> noted, it is possible (and, I'd suggest, important) to
>>> distinguish criticism of Israel from anti-semitism.
>>> I know there are those on this list whose families have
>>> directly suffered in the Holocaust. My own son's family lost
>>> many members - and as genocides are intended to, those who
>>> survived were displaced and lost any connection to the land
>>> that had been their home. I cannot help but wonder -
>>> briefly, but not enough to desire a response from
>>> Fetzer/Francis/etc. - if these 'revisionists' would apply a
>>> similar logic to the Irish experience, and seek to erase the
>>> violence that we were subjected to through the colonial
>>> experience.
>>> Andrew
>>> Dr. Andrew Ó Baoill andrew at funferal.org
>>> <mailto:andrew at funferal.org>
>>> On 17 MFómh 2013, at 23:20, Stephen Francis
>>> <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com <mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>> I'm passing Jim's response to David Gehrig on to the
>>>> group(s)...
>>>> and would like to reiterate my enthusiastic support for
>>>> James Fetzer. I have much to learn from him. He and I are
>>>> on the same page every issue that I can think of.
>>>> I again take exception to remarks like the one below:
>>>> "Steve Francis, by his selection of Jim Fetzer and Kevin
>>>> Barrett, has made it clear that he has aligned himself with
>>>> the Jew-hating wing of trooferdom."
>>>> I reiterate my support for the following JEWISH organizations.
>>>> NKUSA <http://www.nkusa.org/>, JewsNotZionists
>>>> <http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/satmar.htm>,
>>>> JewsAgainstZion
>>>> <http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-against-zionism.html>,
>>>> JewsAgainstZionism <http://rense.com/general54/thank.htm>,
>>>> International Jewish AntiZionist Network
>>>> <http://www.ijsn.net/home/>, American Jews Solidarity
>>>> Against Zionism
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/pages/American-Jews-Solidarity-Against-Zionism/318506794911703>,
>>>> Rabbis Against Zionism <http://www.realjewnews.com/?p=762>,
>>>> IsraelVersusJudaism <http://www.israelversusjudaism.org/>.
>>>> These people created their organizations for a specific
>>>> reason of which they are highly dedicated.
>>>> See Jim's response below:
>>>> *From:* James Fetzer <jfetzer at d.umn.edu
>>>> <mailto:jfetzer at d.umn.edu>>
>>>> *To:* Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com
>>>> <mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>>
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2013 7:34 PM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11
>>>> Truth Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
>>>> Steve,
>>>> Kindly post this as my response to the completely
>>>> unwarranted claims made by:
>>>>
>>>> David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org
>>>> <mailto:david-cu at nukulele.org>> appears to be the epitome
>>>> of arrogance
>>>> driven by ignorance. In his completely gratuitous dismissal
>>>> of my positions, which
>>>> he supports exclusively by a very odd quote taken
>>>> out of context. Does he not
>>>> know that the figure 6,000,000 was being bandied about as
>>>> early as 1890
>>>> and has
>>>> 'a theological or ideological origin. It has nothing to do
>>>> with the history of WWII,
>>>> including of
>>>> course the Holocaust, which he may not realized would not
>>>> take place
>>>> for another 40 or 50 years. But spare me more about the
>>>> Holocaust!
>>>>
>>>> I
>>>> have spelled out my position on a very wide range of
>>>> complex and controversial
>>>> subjects, about which it appears he knows nothing at all.
>>>> If he would like to show
>>>> me wrong, THEN SHOW ME WRONG. Pick the subject on
>>>> which he thinks I am
>>>> most likely to be wrong. Explain my position and why I
>>>> hold it, then spell out what
>>>> he thinks I have wrong and why. I find it completely
>>>> insulting to everyone whom he
>>>> addresses that he can make pompous pronouncements with no
>>>> proof!
>>>>
>>>> Here is a thumbnail sketch of my positions on issues that
>>>> have arisen on the thread:
>>>>
>>>> 9/11 was not committed by 19 Islamic terrorists who
>>>> hijacked four commercial airliners and outfoxed the most
>>>> sophisticated air-defense system in the world;
>>>> the Wellstone plane crash was not an accident, as the NTSB
>>>> reported, but was very carefully contrived for the GOP to
>>>> take control of the Senate and launch wars;
>>>> the Holocaust has been exaggerated for political reasons,
>>>> including war crimes by the allies in the form of
>>>> collective punishment of German cities, which they needed
>>>> to conceal;
>>>> JFK was hit four times--in the throat from in front, in the
>>>> back from behind, and twice in the head (from behind and
>>>> from the right-front)--where Lee Oswald didn't do it;
>>>> the moon landing was easier to pull off than most realize,
>>>> as the film, "Capricorn I", releals, where Stanly Kubrick
>>>> seems to have faked the landings for the government;
>>>> the Boston bombing was an obvious fraud, where the Craft
>>>> International perps had been outed by the alternative press
>>>> already the evening of the event itself; and,
>>>> the Sandy Hook event was staged to promote gun control,
>>>> which fell short but not for a lack of trying.
>>>> Check out http://www.veteranstoday.com/author/fetzer/ for
>>>> my and other's articles about them.
>>>> If anyone thinks I am wrong about any of this, just take a
>>>> look at the evidence and tell me what I have wrong and how
>>>> you know, so I can take your arguments into account.
>>>> Most of us don't have the luxury or the background or the
>>>> ability to take this on, but I am a professional scholar
>>>> who has been devoting himself to their study since my
>>>> retirement.
>>>> I am not happy with what we have found, but the core of
>>>> rationality is to adapt your beliefs to the available
>>>> relevant evidence. For an explanation of how this can be
>>>> done, consider
>>>> "Thinking about 'Conspiracy Theories': 9/11 and JFK", which
>>>> provides an introduction to "inference to the best
>>>> explanation" in reasoning about cases like these at
>>>> http://www.d.umn.edu/~jfetzer/fetzerexpandedx.pdf
>>>> <http://www.d.umn.edu/%7Ejfetzer/fetzerexpandedx.pdf>
>>>> I have benefited from collaborating with authorities in
>>>> different domains, such as a world authority on the human
>>>> brain and expert on wound ballistics, a Ph.D. in physics
>>>> who is also an M.D. and board certified in radiation oncology;
>>>> an M.D. who was present when JFK was brought into Trauma
>>>> Room #1 and two days later was responsible for the
>>>> treatment of his alleged assassin in Trauma Room #2, a
>>>> legendary photo analyst and another Ph.D. in electromagnetism.
>>>> In relation to 9/11, I have similarly benefitted from
>>>> collaboration with physicists, pilots, engineers
>>>> (structural, mechanical, aeronautical, and chemical), which
>>>> has enabled me to sort things out on the basis of experts
>>>> in areas where I am not.
>>>> Since David insists that I have "put my reputation through
>>>> a wood chipper", as he so cavalierly puts it, let him
>>>> choose the subject among those I've listed and SHOW WHAT I
>>>> HAVE WRONG. He can pick the subject and explain what I say
>>>> about it and why, then explain what I have wrong and how he
>>>> knows. I don't think he can prevail on any of these
>>>> subjects and if he cannot, then we will have proof positive
>>>> he is the ignoramus who has no idea what he's talking
>>>> about, which is already apparent to me. So he can take up
>>>> my challenge or crawl back into the hole he came out of.
>>>> The world will know he's a total fraud.
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 17, 2013 at 8:15 PM, David Gehrig
>>>> <david-cu at nukulele.org <mailto:david-cu at nukulele.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm not going to get caught up in a tedious cycle of
>>>> reply to reply to reply, mostly because Jim Fetzer has
>>>> already done me the favor of putting his reputation
>>>> here through the wood chipper, so thoroughly in fact
>>>> that there are hardly any large chunks left that need
>>>> addressing. So here's my sole reply to this thread.
>>>> I long ago decided that there was an upper limit to the
>>>> politeness a Holocaust denier can expect, so I hope you
>>>> don't expect that through some sense of faux
>>>> collegiality I will pretend I don't notice how Fetzer's
>>>> remarks reek of eau d'Naziboy.
>>>> What is Fetzer's argument about the number of Holocaust
>>>> dead based on? He points to a website article of the
>>>> form "What is it with the lying Jews and their fetish
>>>> about the number six million? They're polluting the
>>>> minds of white children." Here's a direct quote from
>>>> the article Fetzer found so persuasive:
>>>> "The primary function of this insidious global
>>>> propaganda campaign is to -- quite simply -- brainwash
>>>> non-Jews into a state of abject fear and paralysis
>>>> while we are ideologically, economically, and
>>>> physically enslaved by the Jewish tribe."
>>>> Now, remember, that's an article that Fetzer not only
>>>> doesn't find racially problematic, not only finds
>>>> agreeable, not only doesn't set off his racism alarm,
>>>> but finds so sunnily agreeable to his worldview that he
>>>> actually recommended it to the rest of this list as an
>>>> example of the sort of thing that shapes his thoughts
>>>> on the topic.
>>>> I've long felt that 9/11 trooferdom, while always quite
>>>> stupid, was not inherently antisemitic. It has its
>>>> Jew-haters, sure, but that doesn't mean everyone.
>>>> Steve Francis, by his selection of Jim Fetzer and Kevin
>>>> Barrett, has made it clear that he has aligned himself
>>>> with the Jew-hating wing of trooferdom.
>>>> The sad part is, I don't think that Steve Francis is
>>>> motivated by antisemitism. I just think he's so
>>>> completely credulous, he doesn't do the most
>>>> rudimentary gut-check of the antisemitic slop people
>>>> like Fetzer feed him.
>>>> @%<
>>>> On Sep 17, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Stephen Francis
>>>> <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com
>>>> <mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>>> This is James Fetzer's response to David Gehrig's post
>>>>> (below)
>>>>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- *From:* James Fetzer
>>>>> <jfetzer at d.umn.edu <mailto:jfetzer at d.umn.edu>>
>>>>> *To:* Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com
>>>>> <mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>>
>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2013 12:49 PM
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Fw: [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on
>>>>> 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
>>>>> Someone is willfully misinterpreting, but that ain't
>>>>> me. I am a Holocaust REVISIONIST,
>>>>> because I believe we have inherited a grossly
>>>>> exaggerated account of the events that
>>>>> are alleged to have taken place at the end of WWII.
>>>>> The number of alleged "victims" of
>>>>> the Holocaust, 6,000,000, for example, appears to be a
>>>>> number that has theological or
>>>>> ideological origins and is not historically accurate.
>>>>> See, for example, a study discussing
>>>>> the origins of the 6,000,000 myth at
>>>>> http://zioncrimefactory.com/the-six-million-myth/
>>>>> Moreover, the Nuremberg Tribunals appear to have
>>>>> presented a biased case to convey
>>>>> the impression that the Nazis were responsible for the
>>>>> extensive starvation of inmates
>>>>> at internment camps, when, as Robert Faurisson,
>>>>> "Against Hollywoodism, Revisionism",
>>>>> http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/2012/02/against-hollywoodism-revisionism.html
>>>>> has
>>>>> explained, that was a consequence of Allied bombing of
>>>>> German cities, which interdicted
>>>>> railroad lines and made it impossible to resupply the
>>>>> camps, leading to mass starvation.
>>>>> Ironically, the Tribunals found that collective
>>>>> punishment is a war crime, which the Allies
>>>>> appear to have been keen to cover-up by attributing
>>>>> the starvation to the Nazis instead.
>>>>> There are many other reasons to doubt the "official
>>>>> account" of the Holocaust. I do not
>>>>> DENY that Jews, gypsies and the mentally and
>>>>> physically infirm were abused by Nazis,
>>>>> but the nature of that abuse appears to have been
>>>>> exaggerated for political purposes. It
>>>>> is no coincidence that the allegation of being a
>>>>> "Holocaust denier" is raised against any
>>>>> one who is remotely critical of the actions or
>>>>> policies of the government of Israel, which
>>>>> may qualify as "anti-Zionist" but does not qualify as
>>>>> "anti-Semitic". For more, I have a
>>>>> half-dozen or more interviews on "The Real Deal"
>>>>> discussing Holocaust mythology at
>>>>> http://radiofetzer.blogspot.com/. Anyone can go there
>>>>> and do a search on "Holocaust".
>>>>> I published an article about this question, "Is 9/11
>>>>> research 'anti-Semitic'?" in 2009. It
>>>>> is offensive that Zionist organizations and
>>>>> individuals continue to attack all of us who
>>>>> are trying to make sense of the evidence about the
>>>>> Holocaust and to counter the false
>>>>> account of history that these exaggerated attacks
>>>>> entail, which play upon a sense of
>>>>> Western guilt to manipulate the public to promote the
>>>>> political agenda of Israel. There
>>>>> is more that could be said here, but I would like to
>>>>> think this is enough. I have most
>>>>> recently laid out my views on these questions in an
>>>>> article in Veterans Today 2013:
>>>>> http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/04/anti-anti-semitism-and-the-search-for-historical-truth/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Forwarded Message -----
>>>>> *From:* David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org
>>>>> <mailto:david-cu at nukulele.org>>
>>>>> *To:* Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com
>>>>> <mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>>
>>>>> *Cc:* occupycu <occupyCU at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> <mailto:occupyCU at lists.chambana.net>>;
>>>>> "peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>"
>>>>> <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>> <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>>; sftalk
>>>>> <sftalk at yahoogroups.com
>>>>> <mailto:sftalk at yahoogroups.com>>
>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 17, 2013 8:40 AM
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on
>>>>> 9/11 Truth Conference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
>>>>> Is that the same Jim Fetzer who says the Nazis
>>>>> only killed 600,000 Jews in the Holocaust, based
>>>>> on his willful misinterpretation of an ICRC
>>>>> document? Why, yes it is.
>>>>> You're not doing a very good job disentangling
>>>>> yourself from the Holocaust denial movement, are you.
>>>>> @%<
>>>>> On Sep 17, 2013, at 6:28 AM, Stephen Francis
>>>>> <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com
>>>>> <mailto:stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>> The News Gazette has published an article
>>>>>> <http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2013-09-16/sunday-conference-focus-911-attacks.html#comment-516074> (and
>>>>>> below) on The Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference
>>>>>> this Sunday at the Urbana Free Library, in
>>>>>> the auditorium from 1:30-4:45pm. Again, the
>>>>>> speakers are three highly knowledgeable
>>>>>> experts on 9/11 Truth including James Fetzer
>>>>>> Ph.D. (founder of Scholars for 9/11 Truth
>>>>>> <http://911scholars.org/>),Wayne Madsen
>>>>>> (editor of WayneMadsenReport.com
>>>>>> <http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/>,Washington D.C.)and
>>>>>> Kevin Barrett (co-founder of theMuslim Jewish
>>>>>> Christian Alliance for 9/11 Truth
>>>>>> <http://www.mujca.com/>). The conference is
>>>>>> hosted by UC 9/11 Truth Urbana-Champaign
>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/groups/uc911truth/>
>>>>>> and NewsFollowUp.com
>>>>>> <http://newsfollowup.com/midwest_911_truth_conference_champaign-urbana_september_2013_newsfollowup.htm> ...
>>>>>> see Facebook Event
>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/events/394502717338293/>
>>>>>> email: info at midwest911truth.com
>>>>>> <mailto:info at midwest911truth.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The world has changed dramatically since
>>>>>> 9/11. Citizens of the U.S. have seen a
>>>>>> precipitous erosion in basic Constitutional
>>>>>> rights since 9/11. This usurpation of rights
>>>>>> has been directly tied to the creation of
>>>>>> government entities and legislation, such as
>>>>>> the Department of Homeland Security, the
>>>>>> Patriot Act, the Military Commissions Act,
>>>>>> the NDAA and revelation of massive
>>>>>> surveillance of the American people by NSA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The first component of the conference will be
>>>>>> to view the widely distributed and acclaimed
>>>>>> documentary film by the Architects &
>>>>>> Engineers for 9/11 Truth, 'Explosive
>>>>>> Evidence: Experts Speak Out'. Because
>>>>>> AE911Truth.org
>>>>>> <http://www.ae911truth.org/> is a highly
>>>>>> significant leader in the 9/11
>>>>>> Truth movement, its influential documentary
>>>>>> deserves careful scrutiny insofar
>>>>>> its conclusions are widely regarded as
>>>>>> providing crucial evidence for future legal
>>>>>> action.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> James Fetzer, Ph.D., will assess the
>>>>>> A&E documentary and report the latest scientific
>>>>>> findings about how it was done, where all sides
>>>>>> agree that the Twin Towers could not have been
>>>>>> brought down by the impact of airliners and
>>>>>> resulting fires.. His analysis of the science of
>>>>>> 9/11 will be complemented by Wayne Madsen's
>>>>>> analysis of who was responsible and why. Kevin
>>>>>> Barrett will moderate and add his perspective to
>>>>>> all of these issues.
>>>>>> We seek to find answers to legitimate questions
>>>>>> about 9/11 and to enable credible prosecutors to
>>>>>> bring the perpetrators for these acts to
>>>>>> justice. There is a vast amount of evidence
>>>>>> gathered to support this belief and has led to
>>>>>> the conclusion that neo-cons in the US were aided
>>>>>> by the intelligence services of other countries.
>>>>>> Supporters of the 9/11 Truth movement, including
>>>>>> local members of UC 9/11 Truth Urbana Champaign,
>>>>>> demand a new independent and international
>>>>>> investigation of 9/11.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We invite all to attend. The conference is free
>>>>>> and open to the public. Thank youSteve Francis
>>>>>> UC 9/11 Truth Urbana-Champaign email:
>>>>>> info at midwest911truth.com
>>>>>> <mailto:info at midwest911truth.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> News Gazette article:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sunday conference to focus on 9/11 attacks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mon, 09/16/2013 - 7:40pm | The News-Gazette
>>>>>> <http://www.news-gazette.com/author/news-gazette>
>>>>>> URBANA --- A conference planned this weekend in
>>>>>> Urbana will explore issues surrounding the
>>>>>> attacks on Sept. 11, 2001.
>>>>>> The Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference will be held at
>>>>>> 1:30 p.m. Sunday in the auditorium of the Urbana
>>>>>> Free Library, 210 W. Green St.
>>>>>> The event is sponsored by UC 9/11 Truth
>>>>>> Urbana-Champaign. (see Facebook)
>>>>>> Admission is free and open to the public.
>>>>>> People who have been studying the events of Sept.
>>>>>> 11 will talk about their perspectives on the attacks.
>>>>>> "According to national and international polls,
>>>>>> nearly 30 percent of the population is skeptical
>>>>>> of the 'official' version of the events of 9/11,"
>>>>>> said Steve Francis of UC 9/11 Truth
>>>>>> Champaign-Urbana. "The 9/11 Commission Report is
>>>>>> viewed as a cover-up by a significant percentage
>>>>>> of citizens and the 9/11 Truth Movement seeks to
>>>>>> find answers to these questions about the real
>>>>>> cause of those atrocities."
>>>>>> The conference will begin the presentation of a
>>>>>> documentary film, "Explosive Evidence: Experts
>>>>>> Speak Out."
>>>>>> James Fetzer, the founder of Scholars for 9/11
>>>>>> Truth, will comment on the documentary and report
>>>>>> on scientific findings.
>>>>>> Wayne Madsen, editor of WayneMadsenReport.com
>>>>>> <http://waynemadsenreport.com/>, will provide an
>>>>>> analysis of who may have been responsible for the
>>>>>> attacks and why.
>>>>>> Kevin Barrett, co-founder of the
>>>>>> Muslim-Jewish-Christian Alliance for 9/11 Truth,
>>>>>> will serve as moderator and will add his
>>>>>> perspective on the issues.
>>>>>> For more information on the event, call Fetzer at
>>>>>> 608-354-4280.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> OccupyCU mailing list OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>> <mailto:OccupyCU at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/occupycu
>>>>>
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