[Peace-discuss] [sf-core] RE: [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 TruthConference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library

Fri Sep 20 23:22:44 UTC 2013

What do you mean by "Carl's tactic," Belden?

Can you give me an example?

--CGE

On Sep 20, 2013, at 6:03 PM, "Fields, A Belden" <a-fields at illinois.edu> wrote:

> 
> 
> David,
> 
> I hate to say it, but the questions you pose to David at the end of your email are are off point and insulting. This is very much like Carl's tactic--i.e., when you are trying to make a point critical of something, then ask the person if they, e.g., support a war or beating their wife. If Socialist Forum or any other group to which I belong were ever to bring a racist who happened to agree with me on a subject other than racism, I would quit that organization in a flash. This is because I would have little faith in the both the analytical capacity and the commitment to humanity of such a person. While such a person certainly has the right to speak , I, or a group to which I belong, would never facilitate it. If this is what David Gehrig is questioning, then I am right by his side on this.
> 
> I am a democratic socialist, and it is my understanding that Socialist Forum is committed to democratic socialism.
> I am certain that it would never facilitate the the propaganda of national socialists (i.e., Nazis or neo-Nazis), even if on certain points we might find ourselves in agreement.
> 
> Disappointedly yours,
> 
> Belden
> 
> ________________________________________
> From: David Johnson [davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net]
> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 4:14 PM
> To: Peace-discuss; occupycu at lists.chambana.net; C. G. Estabrook
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 TruthConference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
> 
> Good point Carl,
> 
> BUT, the conference on Sunday is NOT about anti-semitism, despite the
> efforts of David Gehrig to equate the two, it is about questioning the "
> official " Bush administration story about the 9-11-2001 attacks.
> 
> Mr. Fetzer's views on other subjects are irrelevant in regards to the 9-11
> conference.
> 
> Even IF Mr. Gehrig is correct about Mr. Fetzer being " anti-semetic ", the
> subject of the Holocaust and anti-semitism will NOT be the subject of the
> conference.
> 
> But just to set the record straight, did you notice how quick Mr. Gehrig was
> in trying to equate AWARE with anti-semitism, just because there was a
> debate on the Peace Discuss list ?
> And also, ever since I can remember Mr. Gehrig's postings to Peace Discuss,
> NOT ONCE has he EVER posted an article or an opinion against the neo-con /
> neo-liberal wars of corporate empire.
> Which makes me question Mr. Gehrigs TRUE purpose and agenda for being on
> this list.
> 
> So I will ask you Mr. Gehrig, do you or do you not support the past Bush
> administration and the current Obama administration's foreign policy in
> regards to ;
> 1) The invasion of Afganistan
> 2) The invasion of Iraq
> 3) Targeted Drone assinations of U.S. citizens
> 4) the Patriot Act, the Defense Authorization Act, and the Edward Snowden
> affair
> 
> Myself and others who have spoken privately off-list would really like to
> know.
> 
> David Johnson
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "C. G. Estabrook" <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
> To: "David Gehrig" <david-cu at nukulele.org>
> Cc: "sftalk" <sftalk at yahoogroups.com>; "Stephen Francis"
> <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>; <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; "Jim Fetzer"
> <jfetzer at d.umn.edu>
> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 3:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11
> TruthConference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
> 
> > David-- Did you read my note? AWARE is against racism. I set out some
> > specifics.
> >
> > You seem to suggest anti-Semites should be prevented from "coming to
> > town," or speaking.
> >
> > If you don't believe in free speech for people you despise, you don't
> > believe in it at all.
> >
> > --CGE
> >
> > On Sep 20, 2013, at 11:48 AM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Carl handily demonstrates the problem. Fetzer is a flood of Holocaust
> >> denial, an inherently antisemitic enterprise. Francis, while not
> >> motivated by antisemitism, does not have any basic problem with passing
> >> along the antisemitic crap from Fetzer, including the claim that the
> >> Jewish dead of the Holocaust has been intentionally inflated by a factor
> >> of ten.
> >>
> >> Did Carl notice any of this? I mean, hey, only a notably and nationally
> >> known antisemitic speaker -- and Barrett is just as bad -- come to town,
> >> is all. Why on earth would a self-proclaimed anti-racist organization
> >> have a problem with antisemites coming to town?
> >>
> >> Why would AWARE care that a nationally known Holocaust denier is coming
> >> to town?
> >>
> >> Well, that depends. Which kinds of racism is AWARE actually against?
> >>
> >> "Nazi - schmatzi" AWARE sez, "we don't care, as long as he's not a
> >> neo-liberal!"
> >>
> >> @%<
> >>
> >>> On Sep 20, 2013, at 10:43 AM, "C. G. Estabrook"
> >>> <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> "...The more interesting question at this point, of course, is this ...
> >>> where does AWARE stand?"
> >>>
> >>> Why does David consider that "the more interesting question"? AWARE has
> >>> not been involved in the Gehrig/Francis contretemps, other than having
> >>> its listserv <peace-discuss> the locus of the debate.
> >>>
> >>> There are members and friends of AWARE who think that the 9/11 Truth
> >>> Movement is on to something - indeed, that it is perhaps the most
> >>> important political question in the US today.
> >>>
> >>> There are others (I'm one) who think that Chomsky has it right: "its
> >>> major impact has been to draw off energy from trying to do anything
> >>> about the problems that have arisen" - i.e., Obama's ongoing wars.
> >>>
> >>> AWARE, the Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort of C-U, was founded immediately
> >>> after the attacks of September 11, 2001, by residents of
> >>> Champaign-Urbana and members of the University of Illinois, who saw that
> >>> the U.S. government would use those crimes (whether or not it had guilty
> >>> knowledge of them) as an excuse to carry on and expand its decades-long
> >>> wars for the control of Middle East energy resources.
> >>>
> >>> For a dozen years now, members and friends of AWARE have worked in
> >>> Champaign-Urbana to end the killing by the Bush & Obama administrations,
> >>> by informing their fellow citizens of the real nature of the "war on
> >>> terrorism," in opposition to the largest and most sophisticated
> >>> propaganda campaign in history, conducted by the US government, and
> >>> directed at the American people.
> >>>
> >>> In fact, the US has been carrying on wars in the Middle East for more
> >>> than two generations, practically since the end of the Second World War.
> >>> (The reason is not far to seek: if the principal product of the Mideast
> >>> were asparagus, we wouldn't have half the American military there.)
> >>> AWARE is directed against the ongoing (and expanding) wars for economic
> >>> control by the American 1%. (See the recently published "On Western
> >>> Terrorism: From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare," by Noam Chomsky and Andre
> >>> Vltchek.)
> >>>
> >>> AWARE has from its beginning been concerned about the racism bound up
> >>> with those wars, viz.,
> >>> (1) the US government's use of anti-Arab (and anti-Muslim) propaganda,
> >>> even though a principal US client is the world's most reactionary Muslim
> >>> state, Saudi Arabia;
> >>> (2) the US government's support for an officially racist state, Israel,
> >>> its other principal client in the region, as a "stationary aircraft
> >>> carrier" in its Mideast crimes; and
> >>> (3) the US government's employment as soldiers and mercenaries of poor
> >>> African-Americans and Latina/os (although a recent study suggests that,
> >>> controlled for class [so to speak], the exploitation of these
> >>> communities is not disproportionate).
> >>>
> >>> It's also been argued within AWARE that anti-racism (and identity
> >>> politics in general) has been a fall-back position of an American
> >>> liberalism unable to counter the vicious class war carried on by
> >>> neoliberalism for more than a generation - and to that extent it's a
> >>> distraction from the sources of the ongoing "Western terrorism." (For
> >>> the opposite view, see Dave Roediger's contribution to this list.)
> >>>
> >>> The efforts of AWARE and many similar groups across the country have
> >>> recently produced a victory for the only enemy the president and the
> >>> neoliberal parties fear - the US populace. Opposition from the Left and
> >>> Right (and from all races) is growing outside the control of the
> >>> Republicans and Democrats; it's stymied for the moment Obama's expansion
> >>> of the war.
> >>>
> >>> --CGE
> >>>
> >>>> On Sep 18, 2013, at 8:47 AM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Steve, your unwillingness to address Fetzer's now well-established
> >>>> antisemitism does not magically negate that antisemitism. Neither does
> >>>> it negate your personal moral culpability for inviting a nationally
> >>>> known Holocaust denier to come speak.
> >>>>
> >>>> The more interesting question at this point, of course, is this. Now
> >>>> that Fetzer's made it clear that he is motivated by antisemitism, that
> >>>> he does pillage white power sites looking for goodies to use against
> >>>> The Jew -- where does AWARE stand?
> >>>>
> >>>> Does AWARE oppose antisemitism this blatant?
> >>>>
> >>>> Do only some kinds of anti-racism result in AWARE action?
> >>>>
> >>>> Is AWARE anti-racist, or only anti-racist with an asterisk?
> >>>>
> >>>> Is AWARE's position "Nazi-schmatzi, who cares, as long as he's not a
> >>>> neo-liberal"?
> >>>>
> >>>> @%<
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Sep 18, 2013, at 8:23 AM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Just to remind everyone, The Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference is about
> >>>>> focusing on the evidence of the crime committed on 9/11 and not about
> >>>>> defending ourselves from attacks of anti-Semitism....and will be
> >>>>> conducted as such...