[Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] [sf-core] RE: News Gazette article on 9/11 TruthConference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library

Sat Sep 21 00:06:46 UTC 2013

Anybody who's spent much time on the internet has probably seen a dialogue that goes like this:

A: I like puppies, and by the way the Jews faked up their own Holocaust.

B: That's a pretty antisemitic thing to say.

A: See, whenever you say you like puppies, then they play the antisemitism care.

B: This isn't about the puppies part ---

A: PUPPY THOUGHT POLICE! PUPPY ORWELL! PUPPY MCCARTHYISM! PUPPY INQUISTION! ... and so on.

As far as I'm concerned, Feterz's wackdoodlery about 9/11 is a joke.

What some of you seem to have trouble getting is that it's not the 9/11 part I'm objecting to.

It's the Holocaust denial. Of which, if you read the comment thread at the News-Gazetted, was flaming glowing orange in its antisemitism.

But AWARE apparently only wants to talk about 9/11 puppies.

Your antiracism is failing.

Is that really what you want?

@%<

> On Sep 20, 2013, at 6:22 PM, "C. G. Estabrook" <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
> 
> What do you mean by "Carl's tactic," Belden?
> 
> Can you give me an example?
> 
> --CGE
> 
>> On Sep 20, 2013, at 6:03 PM, "Fields, A Belden" <a-fields at illinois.edu> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> David,
>> 
>> I hate to say it, but the questions you pose to David at the end of your email are are off point and insulting. This is very much like Carl's tactic--i.e., when you are trying to make a point critical of something, then ask the person if they, e.g., support a war or beating their wife. If Socialist Forum or any other group to which I belong were ever to bring a racist who happened to agree with me on a subject other than racism, I would quit that organization in a flash. This is because I would have little faith in the both the analytical capacity and the commitment to humanity of such a person. While such a person certainly has the right to speak , I, or a group to which I belong, would never facilitate it. If this is what David Gehrig is questioning, then I am right by his side on this.
>> 
>> I am a democratic socialist, and it is my understanding that Socialist Forum is committed to democratic socialism.
>> I am certain that it would never facilitate the the propaganda of national socialists (i.e., Nazis or neo-Nazis), even if on certain points we might find ourselves in agreement.
>> 
>> Disappointedly yours,
>> 
>> Belden
>> 
>> ________________________________________
>> From: David Johnson [davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net]
>> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 4:14 PM
>> To: Peace-discuss; occupycu at lists.chambana.net; C. G. Estabrook
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11 TruthConference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
>> 
>> Good point Carl,
>> 
>> BUT, the conference on Sunday is NOT about anti-semitism, despite the
>> efforts of David Gehrig to equate the two, it is about questioning the "
>> official " Bush administration story about the 9-11-2001 attacks.
>> 
>> Mr. Fetzer's views on other subjects are irrelevant in regards to the 9-11
>> conference.
>> 
>> Even IF Mr. Gehrig is correct about Mr. Fetzer being " anti-semetic ", the
>> subject of the Holocaust and anti-semitism will NOT be the subject of the
>> conference.
>> 
>> But just to set the record straight, did you notice how quick Mr. Gehrig was
>> in trying to equate AWARE with anti-semitism, just because there was a
>> debate on the Peace Discuss list ?
>> And also, ever since I can remember Mr. Gehrig's postings to Peace Discuss,
>> NOT ONCE has he EVER posted an article or an opinion against the neo-con /
>> neo-liberal wars of corporate empire.
>> Which makes me question Mr. Gehrigs TRUE purpose and agenda for being on
>> this list.
>> 
>> So I will ask you Mr. Gehrig, do you or do you not support the past Bush
>> administration and the current Obama administration's foreign policy in
>> regards to ;
>> 1) The invasion of Afganistan
>> 2) The invasion of Iraq
>> 3) Targeted Drone assinations of U.S. citizens
>> 4) the Patriot Act, the Defense Authorization Act, and the Edward Snowden
>> affair
>> 
>> Myself and others who have spoken privately off-list would really like to
>> know.
>> 
>> David Johnson
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "C. G. Estabrook" <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
>> To: "David Gehrig" <david-cu at nukulele.org>
>> Cc: "sftalk" <sftalk at yahoogroups.com>; "Stephen Francis"
>> <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>; <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; "Jim Fetzer"
>> <jfetzer at d.umn.edu>
>> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 3:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] News Gazette article on 9/11
>> TruthConference, Sept. 22, Urbana Free Library
>> 
>>> David-- Did you read my note? AWARE is against racism. I set out some
>>> specifics.
>>> 
>>> You seem to suggest anti-Semites should be prevented from "coming to
>>> town," or speaking.
>>> 
>>> If you don't believe in free speech for people you despise, you don't
>>> believe in it at all.
>>> 
>>> --CGE
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 20, 2013, at 11:48 AM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Carl handily demonstrates the problem. Fetzer is a flood of Holocaust
>>>> denial, an inherently antisemitic enterprise. Francis, while not
>>>> motivated by antisemitism, does not have any basic problem with passing
>>>> along the antisemitic crap from Fetzer, including the claim that the
>>>> Jewish dead of the Holocaust has been intentionally inflated by a factor
>>>> of ten.
>>>> 
>>>> Did Carl notice any of this? I mean, hey, only a notably and nationally
>>>> known antisemitic speaker -- and Barrett is just as bad -- come to town,
>>>> is all. Why on earth would a self-proclaimed anti-racist organization
>>>> have a problem with antisemites coming to town?
>>>> 
>>>> Why would AWARE care that a nationally known Holocaust denier is coming
>>>> to town?
>>>> 
>>>> Well, that depends. Which kinds of racism is AWARE actually against?
>>>> 
>>>> "Nazi - schmatzi" AWARE sez, "we don't care, as long as he's not a
>>>> neo-liberal!"
>>>> 
>>>> @%<
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 20, 2013, at 10:43 AM, "C. G. Estabrook"
>>>>> <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> "...The more interesting question at this point, of course, is this ...
>>>>> where does AWARE stand?"
>>>>> 
>>>>> Why does David consider that "the more interesting question"? AWARE has
>>>>> not been involved in the Gehrig/Francis contretemps, other than having
>>>>> its listserv <peace-discuss> the locus of the debate.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There are members and friends of AWARE who think that the 9/11 Truth
>>>>> Movement is on to something - indeed, that it is perhaps the most
>>>>> important political question in the US today.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There are others (I'm one) who think that Chomsky has it right: "its
>>>>> major impact has been to draw off energy from trying to do anything
>>>>> about the problems that have arisen" - i.e., Obama's ongoing wars.
>>>>> 
>>>>> AWARE, the Anti-War Anti-Racism Effort of C-U, was founded immediately
>>>>> after the attacks of September 11, 2001, by residents of
>>>>> Champaign-Urbana and members of the University of Illinois, who saw that
>>>>> the U.S. government would use those crimes (whether or not it had guilty
>>>>> knowledge of them) as an excuse to carry on and expand its decades-long
>>>>> wars for the control of Middle East energy resources.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For a dozen years now, members and friends of AWARE have worked in
>>>>> Champaign-Urbana to end the killing by the Bush & Obama administrations,
>>>>> by informing their fellow citizens of the real nature of the "war on
>>>>> terrorism," in opposition to the largest and most sophisticated
>>>>> propaganda campaign in history, conducted by the US government, and
>>>>> directed at the American people.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In fact, the US has been carrying on wars in the Middle East for more
>>>>> than two generations, practically since the end of the Second World War.
>>>>> (The reason is not far to seek: if the principal product of the Mideast
>>>>> were asparagus, we wouldn't have half the American military there.)
>>>>> AWARE is directed against the ongoing (and expanding) wars for economic
>>>>> control by the American 1%. (See the recently published "On Western
>>>>> Terrorism: From Hiroshima to Drone Warfare," by Noam Chomsky and Andre
>>>>> Vltchek.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> AWARE has from its beginning been concerned about the racism bound up
>>>>> with those wars, viz.,
>>>>> (1) the US government's use of anti-Arab (and anti-Muslim) propaganda,
>>>>> even though a principal US client is the world's most reactionary Muslim
>>>>> state, Saudi Arabia;
>>>>> (2) the US government's support for an officially racist state, Israel,
>>>>> its other principal client in the region, as a "stationary aircraft
>>>>> carrier" in its Mideast crimes; and
>>>>> (3) the US government's employment as soldiers and mercenaries of poor
>>>>> African-Americans and Latina/os (although a recent study suggests that,
>>>>> controlled for class [so to speak], the exploitation of these
>>>>> communities is not disproportionate).
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's also been argued within AWARE that anti-racism (and identity
>>>>> politics in general) has been a fall-back position of an American
>>>>> liberalism unable to counter the vicious class war carried on by
>>>>> neoliberalism for more than a generation - and to that extent it's a
>>>>> distraction from the sources of the ongoing "Western terrorism." (For
>>>>> the opposite view, see Dave Roediger's contribution to this list.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> The efforts of AWARE and many similar groups across the country have
>>>>> recently produced a victory for the only enemy the president and the
>>>>> neoliberal parties fear - the US populace. Opposition from the Left and
>>>>> Right (and from all races) is growing outside the control of the
>>>>> Republicans and Democrats; it's stymied for the moment Obama's expansion
>>>>> of the war.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --CGE
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sep 18, 2013, at 8:47 AM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Steve, your unwillingness to address Fetzer's now well-established
>>>>>> antisemitism does not magically negate that antisemitism. Neither does
>>>>>> it negate your personal moral culpability for inviting a nationally
>>>>>> known Holocaust denier to come speak.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The more interesting question at this point, of course, is this. Now
>>>>>> that Fetzer's made it clear that he is motivated by antisemitism, that
>>>>>> he does pillage white power sites looking for goodies to use against
>>>>>> The Jew -- where does AWARE stand?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Does AWARE oppose antisemitism this blatant?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Do only some kinds of anti-racism result in AWARE action?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Is AWARE anti-racist, or only anti-racist with an asterisk?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Is AWARE's position "Nazi-schmatzi, who cares, as long as he's not a
>>>>>> neo-liberal"?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> @%<
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sep 18, 2013, at 8:23 AM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Just to remind everyone, The Midwest 9/11 Truth Conference is about
>>>>>>> focusing on the evidence of the crime committed on 9/11 and not about
>>>>>>> defending ourselves from attacks of anti-Semitism....and will be
>>>>>>> conducted as such...
> 
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