[Peace-discuss] Academic Freedom Conference ... speakers flying/ driving / Skypeing in from around the country/world.

Sat Apr 26 09:46:32 EDT 2014

CounterPunch (the principal editor is a friend) is I think the best political newsletter on the web, and it's catholic (lower-case c) in its tastes: it often publishes authors - even Catholics (upper case c) - with whom it does not agree. 

On Israel, I think it tends to err in the direction of Mearsheimer-Waltism (see <www.chomsky.info/articles/20060328.htm>) - roughly that the USG substitutes 'Israeli national interests' for 'US national interests':

"...to be explained ... is why US ME policy is so similar to its policies elsewhere -- to which, incidentally, Israel has made important contributions, e.g., in helping the executive branch to evade congressional barriers to carrying out massive terror in Central America, to evade embargoes against South Africa and Rhodesia, and much else ... The thesis M-W propose does however have plenty of appeal. The reason, I think, is that it leaves the US government untouched on its high pinnacle of nobility, 'Wilsonian idealism,' etc., merely in the grip of an all-powerful force that it cannot escape. It's rather like attributing the crimes of the past 60 years to 'exaggerated Cold War illusions,' etc. Convenient, but not too convincing. In either case."

--CGE

On Apr 26, 2014, at 8:14 AM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org> wrote:

> You know, David, this has happened before, when you've flown off the handle and gone all bold-type because you've fundamentally misunderstood what I'm saying. So I'm not interested in playing dictionary games with you. 
> 
> There is a difference between saying "there is antisemitism on the left" and "the left is antisemitic." I am not saying that the left is steeped knee-deep in antisemitism, or anything that broad-brush. If it were, I wouldn't be a part of it. You really have to get out into the Counterpunch quadrant, where Israel Shamir and Gilad Atzmon are still apparently taken seriously, to see it that much. But nobody is served by the self-serving allusion that the left is 100% free of antisemitism, and I'm sorry that your approach seems to be that kind of pure denial.
> 
> @%<
> 
> On Apr 26, 2014, at 7:27 AM, "David Johnson" <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> I am not
>> " raging and screaming " , I am asking you what your definition of " The Left " is ?
>> You stated " liberals and progressives ".
>> You avoided my question by stating two more ambiguous political labels.
>> I am trying to understand where and who this " anti-semitism on the Left " is that you initially claimed.
>>  
>> David Johnson
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: David Gehrig
>> To: David Johnson
>> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:41 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Academic Freedom Conference ... speakers flying/ driving / Skypeing in from around the country/world.
>> 
>> Once you're through raging and steaming, you might want to notice that I answered your question. 
>> 
>> @%<
>> 
>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 7:29 PM, "David Johnson" <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Yes Mr. Gehrig !
>>>  
>>> I want to know what YOUR definition of " The LEFT " is ?
>>>  
>>> I don't care about what other people's definitions are, I want to know what YOUR definition is.
>>>  
>>> WE would like to know what YOUR definition of the " LEFT " is, so that we can seriously consider your accusation  that there is " anti-semitism amongst the LEFT ".
>>>  
>>>  
>>> David Johnson 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: David Gehrig
>>> To: David Johnson
>>> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 7:00 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Academic Freedom Conference ... speakers flying/ driving / Skypeing in from around the country/world.
>>> 
>>> Uh, pretty much the same as everyone else's: liberals and progressives. Is there a point you're trying to make?
>>> 
>>> @%<
>>> 
>>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 6:35 PM, "David Johnson" <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> That is a fact Mr. Gehrig, that Stephen Francis called himself ;
>>>> "...  a progressive. He described himself in a previous post to this list as "a California hippy peace activist." Doesn't sound very Reaganite to me. "
>>>>  
>>>> I could describe myself as the most handsome and intelligent man in the world, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. And therefore do you consider anyone who is NOT a " Reaganite " on the
>>>> " LEFT " ?
>>>> What is YOUR definition of
>>>>  the " LEFT " ?
>>>>  
>>>> David Johnson
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: David Gehrig
>>>> To: David Johnson
>>>> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 6:23 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Academic Freedom Conference ... speakers flying/ driving / Skypeing in from around the country/world.
>>>> 
>>>> He says so himself. He describes himself as a progressive. He described himself in a previous post to this list as "a California hippy peace activist." Doesn't sound very Reaganite to me. 
>>>> 
>>>> @%<
>>>> 
>>>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 5:19 PM, "David Johnson" <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> HOW is he " clearly " LEFT " ?
>>>>>  
>>>>> David Johnson
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: David Gehrig
>>>>> To: David Johnson
>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 5:10 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Academic Freedom Conference ... speakers flying/ driving / Skypeing in from around the country/world.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think that, antisemitism aside, he's pretty clearly left, not right. He certainly considers himself part of the left. And he bought into antisemitism and Holocaust denial because it was being presented to him in the language of the left.
>>>>> 
>>>>> @%<
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 5:04 PM, "David Johnson" <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> That he ( Stephen Francis ) is on the
>>>>>> " LEFT ".
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> David Johnson
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: David Gehrig
>>>>>> To: David Johnson
>>>>>> Cc: Peace-discuss
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 4:47 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Academic Freedom Conference ... speakers flying/ driving / Skypeing in from around the country/world.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'm removing Occupy from the reply list, as it's not a discussion group.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Wrapping antisemitic ideology, up to and including Holocaust denial, in the language of anti-zionism does not magically erase its antisemitism. When Steve Francis does exactly that, as he has done on these lists, then "I'm not an antisemite, only an anti-Zionist" excuse falls apart, and his being on the left, rather than the right, doesn't change that.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So which part do you dispute, that Francis is an antisemite, or that he is on the left?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> @%<
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 4:25 PM, "David Johnson" <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> " even when that antisemitism is on the left and the Counterpunch crowd are too ideologically paralyzed to address it."
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Define WHO and WHERE the " anti-semitism " on the " Left " is Mr. Gehrig.
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> David Johnson
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: David Gehrig
>>>>>>> To: Stephen Francis
>>>>>>> Cc: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net ; occupycu
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, April 25, 2014 10:31 AM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Academic Freedom Conference ... speakers flying/ driving / Skypeing in from around the country/world.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The article confirms that Fetzer is unambiguously a Holocaust denier now. One of at least four appearing at your little Hate-the-Jew Hootenanny, including you. 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Holocaust denial is like a venereal disease; you can trace back how you got it from Fetzer and Barrett, how Fetzer got it from Gilad Atzmon; how Atzmon got it from Israel Shamir, and how Israel Shamir got it from the Jew-conspiracy fantasies of the brownshirts.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> This will be my only reply on the Occupy list, and I make it because when you first showed up here some of the more ideological folks here took your "I'm not antisemitic, just anti-zionist" at face value, despite the David Duke videos on your web site, and paradoxically attacked those like me who called your antisemitism out for what it is. By now, it oughta be clearer than clear that I wasn't "crying wolf" or "trying to change the subject." The time to discuss antisemitism is when there is antisemitism, even when that antisemitism is on the left and the Counterpunch crowd are too ideologically paralyzed to address it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> @%<
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 25, 2014, at 10:07 AM, Stephen Francis <stephenf1113 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Doors open at 9am,  Illini Union, Room 314A, Sat. the 26th.
>>>>>>>> Here's Jim Fetzer's latest article:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>>>>>>> https://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss
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