[Peace-discuss] [Discuss] Common Core

Mon Jan 27 03:04:34 UTC 2014

Nougat isn't good for you.

On Jan 26, 2014, at 9:01 PM, E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森 <ewj at pigsqq.org> wrote:

>> Not every child gets the chance to grow up in a community like Champaign-Urbana.
> 
> This is indisputably true, since there are several million children in the world,
> and for most of them it is too far to walk to C-U to attend school even if they
> arise early each day, and there are few boarding schools in C-U.  
> 
> Democracy, genuine or American, does not necessary imply that there is a consensus in
> the community.  People consent to things that they do not agree with as they see no way out
> or no way period.
> 
> I would suppose that in every place there are those who think that adults should get involved 
> with the education of their children even if they are opposed to taxation and waste and those
> who think that the problem with education in America is that they still dont spend enough.
> 
> I do think that it is a great idea for every community and area to try to find its own way
> and develop according to its own ideas, right, wrong, or indifferent.  If you find
> that the prevalent memes of some place don't suit you, you can move away to 
> find a more suitable spot.
> 
> Mandates of various kinds sent to communities are certainly anti-democratic.
> 
> If the people of Podunk, IL want to teach their children that the earth is flat
> and the moon is made of Green cheese or sticky pecans and nougat, what should one do?
> 
> The Mennonites and many other groups want to teach a certain way of thinking
> in their rural areas.  Why should those be compelled to follow they ways of a 
> majority?  Democracy seems oppressive and tyrannical to them,
> 
> 
> On 1/27/2014 8:02 AM, Lynn Stuckey wrote:
>> 
>> On a genuinely democratic basis, without pressure and harassment, parents, teachers, administrators, citizens, and developing children can make sound decisions in accordance with their local proclivities and genuine concern about their children's futures. On the basis of consensual school/community standards in various disciplines, teachers, parents, and children can make choices that consider the gifts and talents of each child, as well as the labor market. These gifts and talents may have vocational possibilities or otherwise, but it will be up to children, in consultation with their parents and teachers, to make choices with various implications for their development and their future.
>> 
>> Sorry, David, but you've just made it clear that you've always lived in places where adults regard it as their responsibility to educate children.  I must unfortunately inform you that not every community thinks that way (many rural communities are good places of the thinking that drives their underinvestment in education), and your proposed solution will leave these children undereducated and consigned to lower earnings and achievement throughout their life.  While it may make the adults feel good, how does it help the children develop into productive adults?  How does this further your goal of a progressive, more just society?
>> 
>> As a person who grew up in one of those communities that takes pride in undereducating their children, it is not a pleasant place to be in, and there is a reason I refused to subject my own child to that type of education.  I do not appreciate your willingness to throw so many children away.  Not every child gets the chance to grow up in a community like Champaign-Urbana.
>> 
>> Lynn
>> 
>> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 15:30:10 -0800
>> From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com
>> Subject: Re: [Discuss] Common Core
>> To: lynn.stuckey at hotmail.com; peace-discuss at anti-war.net; discuss-communitycourtwatch at lists.chambana.net
>> 
>> Hi Lynn,
>> 
>> So long as schools are accorded the role of sorting out students for their assigned places in brutal capitalism with its radical inequality, then there is not much the schools can do one way or the other. Once we've addressed economic issues as economic issues, then we can address educational issues as educational issues, and let the chips fall where they may. We can have national or state standards, but these should not be mandatory. On a genuinely democratic basis, without pressure and harassment, parents, teachers, administrators, citizens, and developing children can make sound decisions in accordance with their local proclivities and genuine concern about their children's futures. On the basis of consensual school/community standards in various disciplines, teachers, parents, and children can make choices that consider the gifts and talents of each child, as well as the labor market. These gifts and talents may have vocational possibilities or otherwise, but it will be up to children, in consultation with their parents and teachers, to make choices with various implications for their development and their future. On this basis schools can come to address the needs of the individual in the community, rather than groups whose interests, while worthy of consideration, should have no bearing on the development and choices of the child/adolescent/young adult.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> David
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, January 26, 2014 12:53 PM, Lynn Stuckey <lynn.stuckey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>   School districts (parents, teachers, students, citizens) need to develop their own standards.  "Developing their own standards" is what gives us one set of textbooks for Texas and another for the rest of the country.  Is this a path you would like to continue on?  Do you really think the science books that teach about creationism are doing those children any favors?
>>  Standards don't have to be uniform, even among schools or classrooms.  And if the standards are not uniform, how can we be certain that all children in a particular grade level are able to read, write, or do arithmetic at a particular level?  A high school diploma is no longer a guarantee that you can read or write; it has devolved into a marker that you can show up for enough classes and stay out of enough trouble to make it through.  Hence "credential inflation", best symbolized by the drapery company in town that expects its receptionist to possess a four-year degree, yet will only pay her minimum wage.  Any questions as to why this job is constantly in the want ads?
>> They should result from communities developing an educational identity.  I can't remember where you're from, David, but I know you've lived in C-U for almost as long as I have.  I grew up on a farm almost 70 miles south of here, in a county of 14,000 residents (2010 census:  11,400; about 98% white) that is economically depressed and in (proud) possession of bad schools.  You need to understand that many small and rural school districts don't place a high premium on educational achievement, but the Republican-dominated school boards expect and agitate for state payments.  Do you realize how many school districts in Illinois don't have Advanced Placement or Honors classes?  Do you realize how many of the voting citizens of those counties are more concerned about how their high school football or basketball team is doing, but don't care about the kids who are below average on reading or math tests?  Then they wonder why they can't attract economic development, and why their population keeps declining and getting poorer.  
>> 
>> "Developing an educational identity" sounds great on paper and may work well in a university town, where folks recognize the need for all children to be achieving to the best of their abilities.   But it is a disaster for children from areas like the one I grew up in, where the interest is not on educating children, but rather on making sure they show up so the district can collect the maximum payment from the State.
>> 
>> And I'm not a huge fan of Common Core--while the initial idea was good, the back-mapping of what children need to learn, when they need to learn it (often not based on when their developing brains are ready to do it), and the execution of its rollout are horrible, and it's going to fail as badly as pretty much any other education "reform" propogated in American schools since the early 1900's.
>> 
>> What's the answer, you ask?  Well, I'm a fan of the money following the child.   I would abolish attendance boundaries and allow parents and children to flee the schools that are failing children.  And yes, some schools will close, but why shouldn't you be out of business when you won't even bother to make the effort to ensure all children are achieving to the best of their abilities?  Why should a family held be captive to the board's disinterest in and unwillingness to educate children to necessary levels, simply because of their address?  Mine was, and let me tell you, it was not a pleasant experience to be told that my school would not be willing to pay for independent studies in Chemistry II and Physics II my senior year of high school, and that I must round up 12 children to take Calculus (the 9 I had found were considered to be an "insufficient number", out of a class of 78 seniors).  But I was welcome to take P.E. for an additional period, and had I considered Woodworking or Automotive class?  Really?  This is what you want to continue paying for?  Do you have any reason to wonder why the four siblings who got a chance to go to the Illinois Math and Science Academy fled there instead?
>> 
>> "Money following the child" is the model we use for college in the U.S.  I don't buy the argument that parents are incapable of making decisions for the best education for their child from ages 5-17, but once that child hits 18, s/he can make a good decision about what college and career path they are best suited for.  Just check out the statistics on how many people complete college in six years or less, or the rates of degree attainment in community colleges.  Just because some parents make educational decisions you might not agree with does not make them wrong.
>> 
>> Lynn Stuckey
>> 
>> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 07:24:56 -0800
>> From: davegreen84 at yahoo.com
>> To: peace-discuss at anti-war.net; discuss-communitycourtwatch at lists.chambana.net
>> Subject: [Discuss] Common Core
>> 
>> http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/01/24-10
>> 
>> Indispensable for an understanding how corrupted the "liberal vs. conservative" debate is regarding school "reform". School districts (parents, teachers, students, citizens) need to develop their own standards. Standards don't have to be uniform, even among schools or classrooms. They should result from communities developing an educational identity.
>> 
>> DG
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> 
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