[Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] Fw: [Peace] News from Neptune for 14March 2014

Sun Mar 16 15:47:56 UTC 2014

You just proved my point !

Nobody on this list is even talking about the Holocaust, thay have been 
discussing CURRENT Israeli  government policies.

David Johnson

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Gehrig" <david-cu at nukulele.org>
To: "David Johnson" <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>
Cc: "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; 
<occupycu at lists.chambana.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] Fw: [Peace-discuss] [Peace] News from Neptune for 
14March 2014

Don't you love how apologists for neo-Nazi propaganda say it's okay to deny 
the Holocaust as long as you're doing it in the name of anti-zionism?

@%<

> On Mar 15, 2014, at 4:59 PM, "David Johnson" 
> <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> Don't you love how appologists for the neo-fascist racist / apartheid 
>> government of Israel, always want to accuse everyone who questions or 
>> criticize the policies of the Israeli government as " anti-semetic ".
>> Or in the case of people of Jewish decent ; " self-hating Jews ".
>>
>> This indicates their lack of credibility and moral arguement on the 
>> issues concerning the Middle East.
>>
>> David Johnson
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. G. Estabrook" 
>> <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
>> To: "David Gehrig" <david-cu at nukulele.org>
>> Cc: "ya'aQov" <yaaqovz at gmail.com>; <sftalk at yahoogroups.com>; "occupycu" 
>> <occupyCU at lists.chambana.net>; "SJP UIUC" <sjp.uiuc at gmail.com>; "Peace 
>> Discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2014 4:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] [Peace] News from Neptune for 
>> 14March 2014
>>
>>
>> I neither know nor care very much whether Steve Francis is an 
>> anti-Semite. He may well be.
>>
>> What's your position on the (much more serious) issue sketched below?
>>
>> Do you agree with me, or with the editors of CounterPunch?
>>
>> --CGE
>>
>>> On Mar 15, 2014, at 2:54 PM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> So sez Carl "I Let Holocaust Deniers Play Me Like a Piano, But I'd 
>>> Rather Not Discuss It Because That Would Require Admitting It" 
>>> Estabrook.
>>>
>>> Carl, here is the direct question all your furious rhetorical aerobatics 
>>> have failed to get off your tail. Do you finally accept that I attacked 
>>> Steve Francis as an antisemite because he IS an antisemite, one you 
>>> passionately defended again and again without quite getting around to 
>>> the "oops" once he tipped his hand (forward at arms length at an upward 
>>> angle)? Because if that's the case, it's time for a you-a maxima culpa 
>>> you've never quite managed to deliver.
>>>
>>> Quick, Carl, to the Bloviotron! You must make new deflective/distractive 
>>> measures!
>>>
>>> @%<
>>>
>>>> On Mar 15, 2014, at 11:05 AM, "C. G. Estabrook" 
>>>> <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There is an actual issue here, obscured as it is by David's amusing 
>>>> hysterics.
>>>>
>>>> It's the difference between Mearsheimer and Walt on the one hand and 
>>>> Chomsky on the other. The editors of Counterpunch incline to the 
>>>> former, I to the latter.
>>>>
>>>> Roughly put, M-W see the Israeli government dominating US policy, 
>>>> against "American interests." (Their 2007 book, "The Isreal Lobby and 
>>>> U.S. Foreign Policy," even contends that the invasion of Iraq had 
>>>> nothing to do with control of energy resources but only to do with 
>>>> "Israeli interests" - which seems to me obviously false.)
>>>>
>>>> "But recognizing that M-W took a courageous stand, which merits praise, 
>>>> we still have to ask how convincing their thesis is. Not very, in my 
>>>> opinion. I've reviewed elsewhere what the record (historical and 
>>>> documentary) seems to me to show about the main sources of US ME 
>>>> policy, in books and articles for the past 40 years, and can't try to 
>>>> repeat here. M-W make as good a case as one can, I suppose, for the 
>>>> power of the Lobby, but I don't think it provides any reason to modify 
>>>> what has always seemed to me a more plausible interpretation. Notice 
>>>> incidentally that what is at stake is a rather subtle matter: weighing 
>>>> the impact of several factors which (all agree) interact in determining 
>>>> state policy: in particular, (A) strategic-economic interests of 
>>>> concentrations of domestic power in the tight state-corporate linkage, 
>>>> and (B) the Lobby." {Chomsky at 
>>>> <http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20060328.htm>].
>>>>
>>>> Jeffrey Blankfort (a friend of the late Cockburn's, whom CP continues 
>>>> to publish) has an extreme form of the former view; perhaps Norman 
>>>> Finkelstein can be said to have an extreme form of the latter.
>>>>
>>>> In an interview in September 2010, Chomsky said - accurately, I think -
>>>>
>>>> 'There is an interesting mythology that I have opposed the BDS 
>>>> movement. In reality, as explained over and over, I not only support it 
>>>> but was actively involved long before the "movement" took shape. BDS 
>>>> is, of course, a tactic. That should be understood. Norman Finkelstein 
>>>> warned recently that it sometimes appears to be taking on cult-like 
>>>> features. That should be carefully avoided. Like all tactics, 
>>>> particular implementations have to be judged on their own merits. Here 
>>>> there is room for legitimate disagreement. I have been opposed to 
>>>> certain implementations, particularly those that are very likely to 
>>>> harm the victims, as unfortunately has happened.
>>>>
>>>> '...It is convenient, particularly for Westerners, to regard it as an 
>>>> "anti-Israel movement." There are obvious temptations to blaming 
>>>> someone else, but the fact of the matter is that Israel can commit 
>>>> crimes to the extent that they are given decisive support by the US, 
>>>> and less directly, its allies. BDS actions are both principled and most 
>>>> effective when they are directed at our crucial contribution to these 
>>>> crimes, without which they would end; for example, boycott of western 
>>>> firms contributing to the occupation, working to end military aid to 
>>>> Israel, etc.'
>>>>
>>>> That's the point that should direct our own political work - "Israel 
>>>> can commit crimes to the extent that they are given decisive support by 
>>>> the US." Our job is to inform Americans about what is being done in 
>>>> their name by the US government. "It is not simply that most people don’t 
>>>> know what’s going on, but they don’t even know that they don’t know." 
>>>> Cockburn and Counterpunch have done yeoman service in changing that.
>>>>
>>>> --CGE
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 15, 2014, at 10:11 AM, David Gehrig <david-cu at nukulele.org> 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Estabrook's admiration for "Counterpunch" goes a long way toward
>>>>> explaining how a neo-neo-Nazi like Steve Francis could dribble him so
>>>>> humiliatingly up and down the court like a basketball, with Carl
>>>>> insisting "I'm in perfect control of the situation" at each bounce.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you're Counterpunchdrunk, even *considering* the possibility that
>>>>> a critic of Israel is also an antisemite is absolute and complete
>>>>> capitulation to Bibi, must never never never be done, and everything
>>>>> possible must be done to shout down anyone who tries to point it out,
>>>>> even when it's flashing in neon letters like Francis's was all along.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Counterpunch coin has only one side: be as antisemitic as you
>>>>> want, use what antisemitic memes you want, expound what antisemitic
>>>>> conspiracies you want, but as long as you've mentioned the word
>>>>> "zionist" somewhere in there at least once, then the antisemitism is
>>>>> all magically lifted away, and Carl Estabrook is your bestest bestest
>>>>> friend.
>>>>>
>>>>> People like Francis know this, too. They know that they can trust on
>>>>> the Carls of the world to fall right in line. They know the last thing
>>>>> they have to fear is critical examination of their antisemitism from
>>>>> the Carls of the world.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that's how you end up looking the way Carl did, having to pretend
>>>>> at every turn that the criticism of Francis's obvious and blatant
>>>>> antisemitism was all a dodge and a fake - right up until Francis
>>>>> started waving Die Fahne Hoch, when Carl suddenly went vewwy vewwy
>>>>> quiet, never quite getting around to uttering "ooops."
>>>>>
>>>>> But, you know, that really was the best poor Carl could do, given that
>>>>> his trustiest periscope into the issue, Cockburn, is so cracked.
>>>>>
>>>>> @%<
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 14, 2014, at 11:20 PM, "ya'aQov" <yaaqovz at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rabbi B. Rosen's advocacy for BDS was uninformed, fake leftist 
>>>>>> posturing, as D. Green's is. Rosen had an epiphany during Operation 
>>>>>> Cast Lead; that didn't improve his accuracy and analytical prowess.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Possibly the best analyses of BDS is N. Chomsky's and N. 
>>>>>> Finkelstein's
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again and again, people pretending to speak on behalf of Palestinian 
>>>>>> people have NOT spoken with Palestinian people, and fail on 
>>>>>> representing them.  Neither are they representing Israel's opposition 
>>>>>> to their government's policies, nor are they attempting to 
>>>>>> collaborate with Israelis opposing the occupation.  Rabbi Rosen qas a 
>>>>>> good example for that: he mentioned friends in the Israeli opposition 
>>>>>> to he occupation, yet he never attempted to align his Jewish Voice 
>>>>>> for Peace with them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Protesting and bringing an end to the military occupation in the West 
>>>>>> Bank and Gaza will not be accomplished by uninformed, fake posturing, 
>>>>>> and fake representations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 8:25 PM, C. G. Estabrook 
>>>>>> <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
>>>>>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6MQiZk3CI0>.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A "Counterpuncher" edition
>>>>>> Produced and directed by Caleb Seripinas
>>>>>> on Urbana Public Television
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The new number o the New Left Review (January February 2014) contains 
>>>>>> an article by its quondam editor Perry Anderson on the life and 
>>>>>> career of the late Alexander Cockburn, simply best political 
>>>>>> journalist in America in the era of the coming of neoliberalism (and 
>>>>>> a major influence on our program). An excerpt:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From the start, long before Clinton was elected, Alexander foresaw 
>>>>>> what the governor of Arkansas, mired in state-level malfeasance and 
>>>>>> connexions to the Contra programme, would mean as a ruler of the 
>>>>>> country: Walmart jobs for the many and Marc Rich pardons for the few. 
>>>>>> Within five months of the new Presidency he was writing: ‘The Clinton 
>>>>>> administration is over. Oh, it will drag on in a thickening twilight 
>>>>>> of new beginnings and fresh tomorrows’, under a ruler whose language 
>>>>>> bespoke his vision: ‘Clinton’s sloppy, tired phrases limp through the 
>>>>>> reality of America like an obese Sunday jogger waddling down the 
>>>>>> road.’ Of his claim to diplomatic fame, Alexander, abandoning 
>>>>>> mockery, wrote in words that are no less implacably actual today:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "It would take the pen of Swift to evoke the nauseating scenes of 
>>>>>> hypocrisy, bad faith and self-delusion on the White House lawn today 
>>>>>> [13 September 1993], crammed as it was with people who for long years 
>>>>>> were complicit in the butchery and torture of Palestinians and the 
>>>>>> denial of their rights, now applauding the ‘symbolic handshake’ that 
>>>>>> in fact ratified further negation of those same rights. In the shadow 
>>>>>> of an American President with the poise and verbiage of the manager 
>>>>>> of a McDonald’s franchise, Arafat produced oratory so meagre it made 
>>>>>> Rabin sound like Cicero.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Right now, Palestinians get the right to manage the world’s largest 
>>>>>> prison, the Gaza Strip, plus one cow town. It’s as though the Irish 
>>>>>> in 1921 got Tralee plus a few acres in West Cork, with the British 
>>>>>> holding the entire eastern half, Belfast, Dublin, Waterford, plus all 
>>>>>> the resources, with its army free to roam at will across the Irish 
>>>>>> enclaves, themselves fragmented by British highways and drained of 
>>>>>> water. There will be no Palestinian sovereignty and an economy 
>>>>>> completely subordinated to Israel’s."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ###
>>
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