[Peace-discuss] [Discuss] [sf-core] Re: [Peace] Governor signs Israeli bill; not opposed by local Democrats

Sun Jul 26 13:13:16 EDT 2015

Brian, you don’t agree with Orwell’s observation that "If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear”?

> On Jul 26, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Brian Dolinar <briandolinar at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> David - it looks like you tried to pull CUCPJ into this conversation, this is off topic for us, please avoid using the CUCPJ Discuss list for this purpose. I have moved from being irate to being saddened by how this conversation has devolved. If you want to talk about this, please come talk to me when you see me, or call me - 621-5827. BD
> 
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 10:50 AM, David Green via Discuss-CommunityCourtwatch <discuss-communitycourtwatch at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> I would only wish for a genuine ideological battle rather than the Zionist-like avoidance and innuendo that has characterized the repressive forces in this discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> On Sunday, July 26, 2015 10:45 AM, C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> James—
> 
> (1) Did you note where that vicious “two year old” slur originated…?
> 
> (2) What do you make of the determinations BLM seem to have made (and on whose behalf) at the NetRoots Nation?
> 
> <http://www.blackagendareport.com/netroots-nation-confrontation>
> 
> Regards, Carl
> 
> 
>> On Jul 26, 2015, at 10:15 AM, James Kilgore <jjincu at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I don't want to get immersed in this ideological battle but I do have two things to say:
>> 1. It is totally offensive and disrespectful to refer to anyone as a "two year old" and engage in other personal slander. This is precisely the kinds of vitriol we hear directed at those fighting for liberation. Certainly we can keep the discussion on the issues and keep away from petty personal attacks. As someone who has been the target of such attacks from the mainstream media, I am particularly irate at these kinds of comments from people representing a Left politics. 
>> 
>> 2. You have no right to state who has to be accountable to Black Lives Matter. That is for BLM to determine. 
>> 
>> In solidarity,
>> James
>> 
>> James Kilgore
>> Research Scholar
>> Center for African Studies
>> University of Illinois (Urbana-Champaign)
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Jul 26, 2015 at 9:59 AM, David Green via Discuss-CommunityCourtwatch <discuss-communitycourtwatch at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> Astrid, I've never known you to engage in any extended coherent discussion of anything in good faith. Perhaps you see the entire world as a 2-year-old.
>> 
>> But of course I'm willing to publicly debate you about Israel, SB 1761, etc.
>> 
>> Yes, the situations in South Africa and Israel/Palestine are somewhat different. The racist nature of SA was well understood; yet, even so, the US supported it, and Israel developed nuclear weapons with it and provided it with arms to support its murderous onslaughts against Angola and Mozambique in the 1980s.
>> 
>> Israel is equally and in many ways more perversely racist in its institutional practices, but for some time has been much more central as a strategic asset to the US. It's on this basis that the American people, and Jews in particular, are supposed to exalt Israel's alleged virtues. Among those, of course, are an apartheid system in the occupied territories, a genocidal siege on Gaza with regular massacres, a thriving arms industry, and a body of propaganda that rivals Nazi Germany for its inventiveness (which is not to gainsay US propaganda).
>> 
>> This is not even to mention the religious fanaticism that has been stoked by illegal Jewish settlement, and the moral desiccation of the Jewish community in our own country (and community).
>> 
>> Illinois legislators were asked to except being disciplined by the Israel Lobby; they were asked to assure the public and the powers that be that there would not be a hint of dissent to the Lobby's mafia-like hold on the governmental discourse in our state regarding Israel's crimes (and our own). This is partly, of course, related to the repressive measures against Steven Salaita.
>> 
>> These goals were achieved in a secretive, stealthy, and undemocratic manner in Springfield. Nevertheless, Ammons and Bennett are perfectly well aware of the import of their actions. And Carol's explanation to the Prairie Greens meeting a couple of weeks ago was utterly disingenuous.
>> 
>> These are serious issues, which of course have to be avoided by those who engage in despicable (and, ironically, childish) personal attacks.
>> 
>> David Green
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Saturday, July 25, 2015 6:06 PM, Astrid Berkson via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> the situations are entirely different, but no one has the sheer endurance to continue an a discussion with you when you simply repeat yourself ad infinitum. One thing i learned as a mother is never to engage in a contest of wills with a two year old because he has nothing better to do.                                                                                        
>> On 7/25/2015 5:26 PM, 'C. G. Estabrook' carl at newsfromneptune.com [sf-core] wrote:
>>>  
>>> I take your failure to answer to be a recognition that our representatives should vote against apartheid, in South Africa and Israel.
>>> 
>>> The legal maxim is, ‘If the facts are for you, argue the facts; if the law is for you, argue the law; if neither, attack opposing counsel.'
>>> 
>>> > On Jul 25, 2015, at 3:03 PM, Gregg Gordon <ggregg79 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> > 
>>> > Not surprisingly you're missing the point. The point has nothing to do with South Africa, or even Israel. The point is you're a -- well, pompous ass is accurate enough, but too cliched. Donald Trump comes to mind as an apt comparison, except some people take him seriously, so I guess I'm at a loss. Nevertheless, that your missives are uniformly hostile and boorish, I can tolerate. Sometimes they even amuse me for their total lack of judgment and sense of scale, much the way Trump does. What does not amuse me is they are counterproductive to moving toward the better world everyone on these lists wants to see. So I wish you'd shut up, but I know you won't.
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > On Saturday, July 25, 2015 12:45 PM, C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > Sorry. I meant to ask, What did you think of South African apartheid?
>>> > 
>>> > If the South African government had engineered a vote in its favor in the Illinois legislature a generation ago, what do you think your representatives should have done?
>>> > 
>>> > The parallel isn’t exact: Israeli apartheid in the Occupied Territories is worse than South African apartheid ever was.
>>> > 
>>> > —CGE
>>> > 
>>> >> On Jul 25, 2015, at 12:24 PM, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu> wrote:
>>> >> 
>>> > Have you score on South African apartheid?
>>> > 
>>> > Sent from my iPhone
>>> > 
>>> > On Jul 25, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Gregg Gordon via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> > 
>>> > I agree with Mr. Kay. Thanks for speaking up.
>>> > 
>>> > Gregg Gordon
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > On Friday, July 24, 2015 10:40 PM, C. G. Estabrook via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > Would you say the same if they’d failed to vote against apartheid in South Africa?
>>> > 
>>> > (BTW, I haven’t done a radio program in years: are you sure you’re listening to others’ points of view?)
>>> > 
>>> > Regards, CGE
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> >> On Jul 24, 2015, at 10:21 PM, Bruce KAY <bruce.kay at homemail.com.au> wrote:
>>> >> 
>>> >> Mr Estabrook,
>>> >> 
>>> >> You are a painfully single-issue twat. You have zero political nous. You fail to understand that Scott Bennett and Carol Ammons are good representatives of Champaign Urbana despite that they are not Green Party members and despite that they do not always agree with you sir, You show no tolerance of the compromises Carol and Scott are forced to make as working politicians attempting to achieve the policies they perceive as most important for our C-U constituency. You fail to understand, let alone acknowledge the cut and thrust of state politics. You try to bask in your former glory as a past candidate, without ever grasping the real reason why you never got elected. Because you are uncompromising. You pontificate               on your radio program with obnoxious opinions, consistently displaying your inability to listen to others’ points of view.
>>> >> 
>>> >> For the past few weeks I have desisted from commenting on your tirade of harassment of Carol Ammons and Scott Bennett. But you are so one-eyed that your opinions amount to harassment.
>>> >> 
>>> >> I too favor the Green Party, and support Jill Stein for President. But I don’t subscribe to your brand of hateful chauvinist aggression
>>> >> 
>>> >> 
>>> >> Please Mr C G Estabrook, pull your head in.
>>> >> 
>>> >> Nobody wants to be harangued by your diatribe of hatred. 
>>> >> Bruce
>>> >> bruce.kay at homemail.com.au
>>> >> +1 217 419 9140 (in the USA)
>>> >> +61 412 213 689 (in Australia)
>>> >> Home address: 96 Murranji Street Hawker ACT Australia 2614
>>> >> Address in USA: 4018 N. Lincoln Avenue Champaign ILL USA 61822
>>> >> _________________________________
>>> >> 
>>> >> 
>>> >> 
>>> >>> On Jul 24, 2015, at 20:34, C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
>>> >>> 
>>> >>> https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/nora-barrows-friedman/new-illinois-law-does-not-make-bds-illegal
>>> >>> 
>>> >>> The self-styled liberals from C-U, state senator Scott Bennett and state representative Carol Ammons, refused to vote against this bill, promoted by the government of Israel. The bill supports Israeli apartheid: they would not have refused to vote against a bill supporting South African apartheid a generation ago.
>>> >>> 
>>> >>> —CGE
>>> >> 