[Peace-discuss] [Peace] MoveOn Members On Bernie Sanders: 'He'll Say No to Permanent War'

[C. G. Estabrook]

The Nation has now endorsed Sanders, as Glenn Greenwald notes, "only the 3rd time in its long history they've ever endorsed in the Democratic primary” - but the last time was Obama in 2008, when his pro-war/pro-Wall St. views were obvious.

On foreign policy, Sanders is down with the Democrats, notably Obama and Clinton, whom the rest of the world knows should be in cells in The Hague awaiting trial under the Nuremberg principles. 

Obama is president for another full year (and Clinton claims to be tougher). That’s a lot more people killed by people we’re responsible for. 

An attack on the Democrat/neocon war party - which includes Obama and Clinton - may develop in the Republican party. Paul, Trump, and Cruz have all hinted at it, as here: 
http://forward.com/opinion/politics/328287/what-ted-cruz-attack-on-crazy-neoconservatives-means-for-the-jews/ <http://forward.com/opinion/politics/328287/what-ted-cruz-attack-on-crazy-neoconservatives-means-for-the-jews/>

US major post-WWII wars - in Korea and SE Asia - were begun by Democrats and ended by Republicans. The pattern may repeat in SW Asia, especially if we note the Carter and Clinton administrations' responsibility for war in the Mideast. (See Andrew Cockburn, "A Special Relationship: The United States [read: a Democrat administration] is teaming up with Al Qaeda, again" <http://harpers.org/archive/2016/01/a-special-relationship/>.)

A Republican successor to Obama may do more to moderate US depredations around the world than a Democrat. 

—CGE


> On Jan 14, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> wrote:
> 
> Moving this to peace-discuss - that's what it's for, to enable us to publicly insult each other without annoying too many people in the process. ;)
> 
> I didn't see KvH as attaching herself to a particular causation story. The KvH piece linked to appeared in the Washington Post on December 22, following the third Democratic debate, which had taken place the previous Saturday in New Hampshire:
> 
> A vigorous foreign-policy debate between Clinton and Sanders
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/a-vigorous-foreign-policy-debate-between-clinton-and-sanders/2015/12/22/05d8eb92-a819-11e5-bff5-905b92f5f94b_story.html <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.washingtonpost.com_opinions_a-2Dvigorous-2Dforeign-2Dpolicy-2Ddebate-2Dbetween-2Dclinton-2Dand-2Dsanders_2015_12_22_05d8eb92-2Da819-2D11e5-2Dbff5-2D905b92f5f94b-5Fstory.html&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=ySn5FRs65mV7DhzzRpsGYD404C8QdZyiCpTyRL4B6Xk&s=btGYXSlVfCuw2xblREbosN7p8vYC8EGcnp8nzwal2LU&e=>
> 
> Here is the WaPo transcript of that debate: 
> 
> 3rd Democratic debate transcript, annotated: Who said what and what it meant
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/12/19/3rd-democratic-debate-transcript-annotated-who-said-what-and-what-it-meant/ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.washingtonpost.com_news_the-2Dfix_wp_2015_12_19_3rd-2Ddemocratic-2Ddebate-2Dtranscript-2Dannotated-2Dwho-2Dsaid-2Dwhat-2Dand-2Dwhat-2Dit-2Dmeant_&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=ySn5FRs65mV7DhzzRpsGYD404C8QdZyiCpTyRL4B6Xk&s=pvqmCgv9B3MX53_w-CY4S_t1QoRU8No8ySiI3unXinc&e=>
> 
> At the time KvH wrote that, it was an accurate summary of the dynamics in mainstream media. Among many, many examples that appeared in the previous month:
> 
> Sanders knocked off stride by foreign policy focus
> The Vermont senator suddenly finds himself forced to deviate from an economic message he's been honing for decades.
> By Gabriel Debenedetti
> 11/16/15 06:51 PM EST
> Updated 11/16/15 09:41 PM EST
> http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/bernie-sanders-foreign-policy-paris-215937 <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.politico.com_story_2015_11_bernie-2Dsanders-2Dforeign-2Dpolicy-2Dparis-2D215937&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=ySn5FRs65mV7DhzzRpsGYD404C8QdZyiCpTyRL4B6Xk&s=ngK5W20sQ_nw-QBF2IJXmAk5wy9kkdqJTCvbcmcEQmM&e=>
> 
> In fact, as I was writing my piece, I wanted to make the same point that she made, and at first I was going to do it by citing pieces like the Politico piece, but then as I was searching for such pieces, I came across KvH's piece, so I thought: instead of referring to a bunch of these pieces, I can save time and space by just referring to this KvH one that summarizes them all. 
> 
> Whatever one thinks of Obama, it's just about certain that he's going to be President for one more year and no more. It's just about certain that he's going to be replaced by Clinton or Sanders or Trump or Cruz or Rubio. And this is what most Americans who care a lot about politics are focused on right now, in the two weeks remaining before the Iowa caucus: not on Obama, but on what comes after.  
> 
> The story that MoveOn members told when they voted to endorse Sanders is a very different story from that presented by mainstream media, one in which Democratic voters are looking for someone who will avoid war rather than someone who has foreign policy experience. That's what I wanted to highlight in this piece:
> 
> [...]
> This suggests that the result of the Iowa caucus could upend not only the national media narrative about the candidates, but also the national media narrative about what Democratic voters are looking for from candidates on foreign policy. If Sanders wins Iowa with MoveOn's support, then MoveOn could use this to credibly claim, as vanden Heuvel suggested, that on foreign policy Democratic voters don't value "experience" right now as much as they value "not getting us in more wars" and "peaceful solutions to prevent war," like the Iran deal.
> 
> - "MoveOn Members On Bernie Sanders: 'He'll Say No to Permanent War'"
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/moveon-members-on-bernie_b_8974246.html <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.huffingtonpost.com_robert-2Dnaiman_moveon-2Dmembers-2Don-2Dbernie-5Fb-5F8974246.html&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=ySn5FRs65mV7DhzzRpsGYD404C8QdZyiCpTyRL4B6Xk&s=D7gMRQaN4Etck_40FhDcfrraVSZZLshsah-8DXcgY9s&e=>
> 
> 
> Robert Naiman
> Policy Director
> Just Foreign Policy
> www.justforeignpolicy.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.justforeignpolicy.org&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=ySn5FRs65mV7DhzzRpsGYD404C8QdZyiCpTyRL4B6Xk&s=nchY-UyKKPBS2bPGUhA6OQpd4KfwaIc4n4cYsJALnrM&e=>
> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> (202) 448-2898 x1
> 
> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 10:32 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> What’s odd is KVH’s perception of “voters' grow[ing] more concerned about national security and terrorism” as if that’s a free variable.
> 
> She knows but doesn’t admit that it’s the result of (as I say) "the administration’s scare-mongering and attempts to mask its killing."  
> 
> (I appreciate the unwonted respect, Bob. Or were you being ironic?)
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 10:16 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> What's odd about it, O wise one?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Robert Naiman
>> Policy Director
>> Just Foreign Policy
>> www.justforeignpolicy.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.justforeignpolicy.org&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=9JXCKeQxqQI9D_KiJJcCTbvMZFW79mJDlhLIGon1Zns&s=DlaG47GsueNyL-kuIUSqXWGii_lELUPz16ze875_Hls&e=>
>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
>> (202) 448-2898 x1 <tel:%28202%29%20448-2898%20x1>
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 6:47 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>> That’s an odd way to say that Clinton means to continue Obama’s criminal war-making - as Obama continued Bush’s.
>> 
>> Her problem is that Americans are not enthusiastic for more war, in spite of the administration’s scare-mongering and attempts to mask its killing.  
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 6:36 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> As Katrina vanden Heuvel has written <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.washingtonpost.com_opinions_a-2Dvigorous-2Dforeign-2Dpolicy-2Ddebate-2Dbetween-2Dclinton-2Dand-2Dsanders_2015_12_22_05d8eb92-2Da819-2D11e5-2Dbff5-2D905b92f5f94b-5Fstory.html&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=IgZKbSLMr9ETXtUaxubXzRdTgImHRnySq-nE67XgoHQ&s=AAN4VL6g1u82heTIy2WyixVtngyUrkz3G4RrKTz3Mnc&e=>, "The conventional wisdom is that [Hillary] Clinton benefits as voters grow more concerned about national security and terrorism. She is the most experienced of all the candidates." But, vanden Heuvel argued, "as we have seen on domestic issues, experience is a mixed blessing when fundamental judgments have been wrong and counterproductive."
>>> 
>>> It would appear that most members of MoveOn agree with vanden Heuvel on this point.
>>> 
>>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-naiman/moveon-members-on-bernie_b_8974246.html <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.huffingtonpost.com_robert-2Dnaiman_moveon-2Dmembers-2Don-2Dbernie-5Fb-5F8974246.html&d=BQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=IgZKbSLMr9ETXtUaxubXzRdTgImHRnySq-nE67XgoHQ&s=WiTgPkLEdUd9qHSTrUKub2yt4-clTyU5XoELRtBEjSE&e=>
>>> ===
>>> 
>> 
>> 
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