[Peace-discuss] Fw: [ufpj-activist] [CCDS Members] Hillary and Trump

[Karen Aram]

Please see Kevin Zeese's message of peace and hope, its very important:


________________________________
From: Global Network <globalnet at mindspring.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 4:23 PM
To: Kevin Zeese; Karen Aram
Cc: Ray Markey; ufpj-activist; Michael Eisenscher; Richard Ochs; DemocraticLeft at yahoogroups.com; CCDS Members
Subject: Re: [ufpj-activist] [CCDS Members] Hillary and Trump

Sadly the minds of far too many ‘progressives’ have been colonized by the corporate oligarchy that controls all the levers of power

We are indeed in bad shape when ‘peaceniks’ are defending a classic warmonger like Clinton and Tim Kaine

Bruce Gagnon

From: Kevin Zeese<mailto:kbzeese at gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 5:01 PM
To: Karen Aram<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>
Cc: Ray Markey<mailto:rmarkey527 at aol.com> ; ufpj-activist<mailto:ufpj-activist at lists.mayfirst.org> ; Michael Eisenscher<mailto:meisenscher at igc.org> ; Richard Ochs<mailto:rjochs at comcast.net> ; DemocraticLeft at yahoogroups.com<mailto:DemocraticLeft at yahoogroups.com> ; CCDS Members<mailto:members at lists.cc-ds.org>
Subject: Re: [ufpj-activist] [CCDS Members] Hillary and Trump

I did something I rarely do since I am in a hotel with a cold in Philadelphia, I watched corporate media. On CNN there was a discussion among four conservatives, all but one was saying how Trump was going to lose (saying 'we all know that') and the issue is how they avoid him destroying the Republican Party.

Yet, on a peace list where Trump's competition is about the most hawkish Democrat that could be nominated, some are so nervous about Trump that they are in a frenzy to push a Democratic militarist who seems to seek wars. Yes, Trump is terrible but the fear is not based in political reality.

It really shows how well lesser evilism can work that peace advocates will push people to vote for a war candidate -- someone who seems to be seeking war with Russia, and she and her VP nominee pushing the use of nuclear weapons.

Please -- those of you in fear of Trump -- look at the electoral college map. Go through the process of seeing how many blue states Clinton is assured of winning. It totals 247 electoral college votes. All she needs is Florida (where every poll shows her winning) and she is president. There are 40 more delegates in states leaning Democrat. Folks -- that is going to be an electoral college landslide for Clinton. Don't fall for the 'Trump can win' propaganda -- it is not real.

So, the real task of the peace movement is how do we curtail the worst of Clinton? How do we use the election to weaken Clinton's very likely push to war? There will not be a lot of swing states by October, my guess is only two or three states will actually be in contention. So, people will be able to vote against Clinton and against Trump without fear. Every percentage vote that Jill Stein gets helps the movement for peace as well as those working for economic, racial and environmental justice. It forces her to not take the left for granted.

Then, after the election, people should be planning #NoHoneymoon for Clinton protests, starting at the beginning of 2017, going through the inauguration and continuing. She needs to feel pressure from the people throughout her presidency. It needs to be a presidency of protest. If we do that, we will be forcing Clinton to do things she does not want to do -- things that the movement wants. People power can grow if activists do not vote in fear but vote for what they want; and plan campaigns against Clinton throughout 2017.

If you are going to vote in fear, don't spread the disempowering fear virus. We have seen where lesser evil voting leads to -- it leads to everything we don't want, wars, more oil and gas, Wall Street bailouts, wealth divide, not confronting racial injustice or climate etc. -- and it leads to two terrible candidates. We need to break out of this downward spiral and we will only do so by not voting in fear.

KZ


@KBZeese
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On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com<mailto:karenaram at hotmail.com>> wrote:

Something left out of the description related to Hillary, is the fact that she is a "mass murderer". Her record as Secretary of State in reference to Libya, and Honduras are just two examples of the death and destruction she has brought to thousands. She has supported every one of Obama's wars, Bushes wars, and Clinton's wars.

So far Trump, though he maybe despicable, he is not a murderer.

A socialist never supports war or war mongers.

It's time to build a third party that doesn't support war and aggression, the proliferation of weapons, and poverty for the working classes, as Mort just said, "support Jill Stein" of the Green Party.

________________________________
From: ufpj-activist <ufpj-activist-bounces+karenaram=hotmail.com at lists.mayfirst.org<mailto:hotmail.com at lists.mayfirst.org>> on behalf of Brussel, Morton K <brussel at illinois.edu<mailto:brussel at illinois.edu>>
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 2:05:40 PM
To: David McReynolds
Cc: Ray Markey; Richard Ochs; ufpj-activist; Michael Eisenscher; DemocraticLeft at yahoogroups.com<mailto:DemocraticLeft at yahoogroups.com>; CCDS Members
Subject: Re: [ufpj-activist] [CCDS Members] Hillary and Trump

Are you (both) saying “Vote for Clinton”?

The evaluation given here to Trump seems over the top and needs a more solid evidence and objectivity.  For example, although a wild card, Trump is less belligerent than Clinton, he even says that he wants to make deals with Putin!
Both are dangerous to humanity’s welfare.

Vote Jill Stein. Vote your conscience and your values; that cannot be either Trump or Clinton!

—mkb

On Jul 24, 2016, at 1:43 PM, David McReynolds <davidmcreynolds7 at gmail.com<mailto:davidmcreynolds7 at gmail.com>> wrote:

I swore I was going to stay off email today and attend to other matters (such as paying bills) but Michael puts the case so clearly that I  want to say I agree, and am sending this to a wider list of socialists to consider.

David McReynolds

On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 2:35 PM, Michael Eisenscher <meisenscher at igc.org<mailto:meisenscher at igc.org>> wrote:
For purposes of discussion only, let's assume there are no fundamental differences between Trump and Clinton (an assumption in my view at odds with the facts).  Ask yourself whether there are any important differences between those forces that each candidate brings with them.

The Trump campaign has opened the door to the most racist, xenophobic, sexist, homophobic, reactionary and fascistic elements of our society.  He has welcomed their support and legitimized their participation.  Trump's election would unleash these forces and give them a green light that would immediately heighten the daily risk and terror experienced by people of color (African Americans foremost among them), immigrants, Muslims, women, LGBTQ people, the poor, youth and the political left.  This would be a kind of ugliness we have not seen since George Wallace ran. Imagine if Wallace had won and then multiply that many times over.  It would deepen social divisions and make organizing for a progressive alternative immeasurably more arduous (and dangerous).

Hillary Clinton is an odious politician, a neoliberal with a bellicose propensity, a reliable servant of Wall St.  But she is not a neo-fascist.  She is many things but she is no Donald Trump.  We know pretty well what to expect and what kind of forces will have influence if she is president.  They are familiar because we are struggling with them now.

If you agree with that assessment of what will happen in the wake of a Trump victory and still see no difference between Clinton and Trump, I doubt further debate is likely to change your perspective. Only those who believe "the worse the better" could be indifferent to that prospect.

Impugning someone's motives, questioning their commitment to the left and demonizing those with whom you have a political or ideological difference is intellectually lazy. What it suggests is that you don't have the political integrity and intellectual capacity to set for a convincing argument or insightful analysis in support of your preferred position.  It also makes this list and others where it occurs an uninviting place for people who are honestly wrestling with these issues and who are trying to clarify for themselves what do to or how to understand what is happening.

One of the hallmarks of the American left is the extent to which sectarianism, dogmatism and ego-tripping have fractured, splintered and kept it divided - and thus incapable of building a broad base of popular support.  If we can't debate our differences in a comradely and constructive manner, we simply perpetuate that failure and guarantee our marginalization.

Michael





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