[Peace-discuss] Good Riddance Killary! Hillary R Clinton. We Came, We Saw, He Died"

Fri Nov 25 20:36:18 UTC 2016

I’ve learnt from Noam Chomsky since I first encountered him, more than 40 years ago. He’s the first person I’d recommend to someone who wanted to know something about American politics. (I have a note about this elsewhere on fb: <https://www.facebook.com/notes/carl-g-estabrook/what-i-think-ive-learnt-notes-for-a-college-reunion/10152036051767474>.)    

And I agree with Chomsky about “lesser evil” voting, which seems simply obvious to me. I disagree with him however on which of the major party candidates was the lesser evil in this past election. The matter of course is undecidable, owing to the successful candidate’s ability to do something different from what s/he indicated they would do. Obama for example turned out simply to be lying when he was elected (twice) because people believed he would end Bush’s wars.  

Chomsky pointed out before the election how unimportant the choice was: "Most of the time it's a very small decision, maybe if you can, you just have to compare the alternatives and see if there is on balance any difference but it doesn't seem to be a fundamental question.” <http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/noam-chomsky-why-people-should-vote-lesser-two-evils-and-spend-5-minutes-making>.

I didn’t like Trump at all, but his positions are much better than Clinton’s on every issue I can think of (especially since neither mentioned climate catastrophe) - notably neoliberalism (more inequality) and neoconservatism (more war). Trump is the first major party candidate in 40 years not to pay homage to the shibboleths of the neolibs and the neocons. The question is, will he be able to sustain those views?

As I suggested, the task now is to oppose the neocons' (who fled Trump for Clinton, a proven warmonger) scuttling back aboard the Trump presidency.

—CGE

> On Nov 25, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Bryan Savage <bryan at sneezingdogs.com> wrote:
> 
> And while we're at it, let's get rid of this guy Chomsky. He thinks there was a moral question in who we decided to vote for and that we chose the wrong way.  What's he doing in the peace movement? He disagrees with us! War monger! NAZI! 
> 
> Noam Chomsky, the renowned scholar and MIT professor emeritus, said people who didn’t vote for former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to block a Donald Trump presidency made a “bad mistake".
> 
> Chomsky told Al Jazeera’s Mehdi Hasan there’s a “moral issue” in voting “against the greater evil” ― Trump, in this case ― even if you don’t like the other candidate. But he also said there was a factual question regarding this year’s candidates, pointing out Trump and Clinton’s “very different” records.
> 
> “I didn’t like Clinton at all, but her positions are much better than Trump’s on every issue I can think of,” Chomsky said.
> 
> “Every Republican candidate is either a climate change denier or a skeptic who says we can’t do it,” Chomsky said. “What they are saying is, ‘Let’s destroy the world.’ Is that worth voting against? Yeah.”
> 
> Chomsky criticized Trump in May, calling his refusal to accept the science behind climate change “a death knell for the [human] species.” Chomsky has also been critical of the Republican Party, saying the GOP’s policies pose “serious danger to human survival.”
> 
> Chomsky told The Huffington Post in February, Trump’s success could be attributed to his ability to appeal to “deep feelings of anger, fear, frustration, hopelessness, probably among sectors like those that are seeing an increase in mortality, something unheard of apart from war and catastrophe.”
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/noam-chomsky-donald-trump_us_58385d81e4b000af95ee1fda
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 12:19 PM, C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
> These are Clintonoid talking points. Let’s see how many of them come true. (Several are already obvious fantasy.)
> 
> The task now is to prevent the neocons - who fled Trump for Clinton, a proven warmonger - from scuttling back aboard the Trump presidency.
> 
> —CGE
> 
> > On Nov 9, 2016, at 8:52 AM, Bryan Savage via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> >
> > oh Carl, the news is great. here'a a list of the great things
> >
> > 1.  Secretary of State Gingrich,
> > 2.  Attorney General Giuliani,
> > 3.  Transportation Secretary Christie,
> > 4   Ambassador to the UN Palin.
> > 5.  End of healthcare for millions,
> > 6   End of the EPA, t
> > 7.  End of National Parks.
> > 8.  Hope your daughters don't need contraceptives or abortions,
> > 9.  Hope your kids enjoy watching Social Security evaporate just before they need it.
> > 10.Thanks for nuclear proliferation.
> > 11. The end of addressing climate change
> > 12. The continued denial of science
> > 13. The beginnings of a Fascist Theocracy
> > 14  A supreme court that will strip us of our civil rights
> >
> > Thanks for your staunch principles and your righteous stands.
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 8:43 AM, C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com> wrote:
> > HRC 'demonized’ herself by being an enthusiastic participant in murder on behalf to the US 1% in Serbia, Honduras, Libya, Syria - and planning more.
> >
> > For the first time in 40 years we have a president(-elect) who’s not a neoconservative (more war) or a neoliberal (more inequality). Clinton is both.
> >
> > There are of course serious problems with a Trump presidency (climate change at the top of the list) and the War Party won’t go away (we still have two months of Obama) - but the news is surely good for the anti-war movement - and the world at large.
> >
> > --CGE
> >
> > > On Nov 9, 2016, at 7:14 AM, Bryan Savage <bryan at sneezingdogs.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > did anyone stop to think that demonizing HRC and supporting third parties might actually help put trump in office?  or does everyone on this list have clean hands and a clean conscience and feel that they took no part in electing this:
> > >
> > > <iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/IQ_XcztaXd0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
> > >
> > > take me off this list.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 7:08 AM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > We have to double down our efforts in building the Green Party, given what we are facing. Will Trump demilitarize, as some on the left seem to think? I doubt it. Let’s see who he chooses for his Cabinet. He already has a war monger/fascist style for a running mate.
> > >> On Nov 9, 2016, at 04:57, Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> For the Greens on the list:Too bad what happened to Jill. I voted for her the last time too.
> > >> Fab.
> > >>