[Peace-discuss] [Peace] Inside Trump Defense Secretary Pick’s Efforts to Halt Torture - The New York Times

[Carl G. Estabrook]

Yes, “the statement 'Trump is a fascist' stands or falls on its own merits” - which are not very great…

But it’s being used to delegitimize the Trump presidency, because of his challenges to the neoliberal (more inequality) and neocon (more war) policies of the Obama administration.

If the political establishment cannot displace him (and they haven’t given up), they can at least neutralize those challenges:

“...calls mount to challenge congressional ratification of Electoral College vote”—

http://www.alternet.org/election-2016/least-50-trump-electors-were-illegitimately-seated-electoral-college-members

—CGE


> On Jan 5, 2017, at 7:26 PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 7:15 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> 
> It’s clear by now what's wrong with the “Trump is a fascist” line.
> 
> It’s inaccurate, but more importantly it’s a disingenuous defense of the neoliberal/neocon establishment.  
> 
> How is this logical, Carl?  The statement "Trump is a fascist" stands or falls on its own merits, and has nothing to do with the relative merits of the neoliberal/neocon establishment unless we choose to explicitly compare the two in some way.  
> 
> As it happens, the presidential candidate you despise(d) is out of the picture, irrelevant.  And as it happens, Drumpf the fascist is filling his cabinet and advisory ranks with the very neoliberal Wall Streeters that you (and I) despise.  No one in my circles is defending his appointments.
> 
> Things are never so black and white as you try to make them.
> 
> 
>  
> We need an anti-war/anti-Wall Street movement, not a defense of (pro-war/pro-Wall St.) Obama-Clinton Democrats. 
> 
> —CGE
> 
> 
>> On Jan 5, 2017, at 4:29 PM, Jay <futureup2us at gmail.com <mailto:futureup2us at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> That article I shared is from Revolution newspaper, which is a publication of the Revolutionary Communist Party. Do we evaluate ideas based on their source, or the content? You mention only the one. 
>> 
>> RefuseFascism.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__RefuseFascism.org&d=DQMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=xJBcCfkEFuu-bD9C60Ptjmup7dDgkdbiSHciZehRroY&s=lP1n61gMJLCiveTAZtFSESywh1oVCh8iRfhNBih6fhc&e=> is a far far broader movement. One of the initiators is a member of the RCP, Carl Dix. Everyone is invited to check out the scope & range of the people <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__refusefascism.org_we-2Drefuse-2Dto-2Daccept-2Da-2Dfascist-2Damerica_-23sign&d=DQMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=xJBcCfkEFuu-bD9C60Ptjmup7dDgkdbiSHciZehRroY&s=5nrjLouLw6FfnNOCyWDL2pH4nnqH006AaCdbl0Htak4&e=> who have joined in this effort, at no small risk to themselves, and the Crowdrise crowd funding site lists the donations that funded the NY Times ad. 
>> 
>> I’m taken aback by this red baiting. If the RCP is involved in something, it’s “their ad?” 
>> 
>> Jay
>> 
>>> On Jan 5, 2017, at 16:05, Carl G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Jay’s note is from the 'Revolutionary Communist Party,’ Bob Avakian’s group.
>>> 
>>> See their ad in Wednesday’s NY Times, <https://refusefascism.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__refusefascism.org_&d=DQMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=xJBcCfkEFuu-bD9C60Ptjmup7dDgkdbiSHciZehRroY&s=KpnkoZwDNRvNJxytT97_PEbar2qiPFSxFoEkExfYSmo&e=>>.
>>> 
>>> —CGE
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 4, 2017, at 2:11 PM, Jay <futureup2us at gmail.com <mailto:futureup2us at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Yes they are all war criminals, it comes with the job of leading a predatory empire. AND there are sharp differences among them. Trump will be a war criminal the minute he takes power, if he does, and a fascist. 
>>>> 
>>>> One example of both the criminality of all sides of the ruling class and differences among them: 
>>>> 
>>>> Trump’s “Stay Strong Israel” tweet - Genocidal Implications for the Palestinians…a Model for America Ueber Alles. <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.revcom.us_a_472_trumps-2Dstay-2Dstrong-2Disrael-2Dtweet-2Dgenocidal-2Dimplications-2Den.html&d=DQMF-g&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=AhFuAE-JtaI1EA-m6HK6J1ifDRXFqSCsAzHSnXLVlmo&s=NMlNOXqlJ2iwd6X5cN9ixW-8Py6pFdVxZg1Q0WCfBKE&e=>
>>>> 
>>>> Jay
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 
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