[Peace-discuss] Guest Commentary by Carl in NG
Karen Aram
karenaram at hotmail.com
Mon Nov 6 16:26:57 UTC 2017
Carl
I’m not sure we can abandon those labels of capitalism when referring to US deterioration as a result of our being a capitalist system.
Just as many refer to Chinese as Communist, they are a mixed economy. It is a form of Capitalism that is creating the many Chinese billionaires in relation to investment and business, therefore inequality, with the “State” no longer paying for higher education or healthcare. It is Communism in that they use a five year plan agreed to by “the Communist Party upper echelon.” Well educated generally in the field of engineering, or STEM.
There are thousands of “members” of the Communist Party, top students in China are invited to join, upon graduation. My Assistant in Shanghai was a member. Does this mean she has any say or vote within the Party? No, not at all.
Capitalism in China is a fact of life, with Communist control, but either way, the goal of the Party and Xi Jing Ping is to improve the lives of the people by way of business and development. Not by suppressing the people in order to promote the 1% as we do in the US.
The Silk Road or BRI is capitalist investment, but its in infrastructure projects which will benefit all nations involved. Unlike the US who provides only loans nations can not pay back, or war and destruction to benefit the elites.
While I support China’s programs, I know they are self serving and at some point capitalism will doom them, as it has us, if “profit” is their only goal. However, they are not hegemonous or imperialist, in that they prefer peace and stability. A win win, on both sides and shared markets is the age old Chinese tradition when it comes to business and they look at “long term profits.” Unlike the US who is about “winner take all” “crush the competition,” with “short term profits the goal.”
Either way, the Chinese economy and politics, is the business of the Chinese people, not the US. The US has no business interfering with our foreign policy of containment and control, by way of imperialist wars and destruction.
> On Nov 6, 2017, at 07:50, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think we should abandon the labels 'capitalist’ and ‘socialist’ as descriptions of the US or Chinese economies - or at least say what we mean by them.
>
> Neither the Chinese nor the US economy bears much relation to the capitalism Marx analyzed a century and a half ago - largely because of the involvement of the state.
>
> It’s the (quite traditional) belligerent policy of the US government, working for the 1%, that seeks to derail […] Chinese development, notably the BRI.
>
> We should of course be opposing USG policy, and call on it to cease the attacks on China (and Russia). —CGE
>
>
>> On Nov 6, 2017, at 6:39 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>> True, it was Deng who with his reforms brought about capitalism. China is now a “mixed economy.”
>>
>> Sadly, neither college education or healthcare are free under their capitalist reforms.
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 6, 2017, at 03:53, Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, of course, turn China into a Capitalist Mecca. Fab.
>>>
>>> Francis A. Boyle
>>> Law Building
>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
>>> Champaign IL 61820 USA
>>> 217-333-7954 (phone)
>>> 217-244-1478 (fax)
>>> (personal comments only)
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 9:18 PM
>>> To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>
>>> Cc: Peace-discuss <Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Guest Commentary by Carl in NG
>>>
>>> Probably not, I’d say.
>>>
>>> (And maybe Zhou didn’t either. His famous remark, "It is too soon to say,” is often thought to refer to the significance of the French Revolution of 1789, but it has been argued that he was actually referring to the French protests of 1968; see "Zhou’s cryptic caution lost in translation" by Richard McGregor in Financial Times, 10 June 2011.)
>>>
>>> Modern Chinese history doesn’t stop with the Cultural Revolution. Surely Deng’s reforms of the 1980s were at least as important. —CGE
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 5, 2017, at 3:15 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> As Cho En Lai said about the French Revolution: It is too early to say. Fab.
>>>>
>>>> Francis A. Boyle
>>>> Law Building
>>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
>>>> Champaign IL 61820 USA
>>>> 217-333-7954 (phone)
>>>> 217-244-1478 (fax)
>>>> (personal comments only)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 2:06 PM
>>>> To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>
>>>> Cc: Peace-discuss <Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Guest Commentary by Carl in NG
>>>>
>>>> Probably roughly where it is, wouldn’t you think?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 5, 2017, at 12:20 PM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yeah, as I said before: Where would China be today without Mao's Good Ole Cultural Revolution?
>>>>>
>>>>> fab
>>>>>
>>>>> Francis A. Boyle
>>>>> Law Building
>>>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
>>>>> Champaign IL 61820 USA
>>>>> 217-333-7954 (phone)
>>>>> 217-244-1478 (fax)
>>>>> (personal comments only)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 10:52 AM
>>>>> To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>
>>>>> Cc: Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>; Peace-discuss <Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Guest Commentary by Carl in NG
>>>>>
>>>>> Many Americans don’t realize that the greatest unpleasant fp surprise to the US elite in the 20th century was neither the Bolshevik coup (which led the Wilson administration to invade Russia) nor Pearl Harbor (which the Roosevelt administration angled for, as the Lincoln administration angled for the attack on Fort Sumter, and for the same reason: to coerce an unwilling US public into war).
>>>>>
>>>>> It was rather the ‘loss of China' in 1949. And for that reason, China is misrepresented in US media and scholarship, more than any other major state, with the possible exception of Russia.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the paramount task of the anti-war movement is to combat those misrepresentations - including the Cultural Revolution (1966-76) and the Tiananmen Square protests (1989) - as the Trump administration continues the previous administration’s war provocations against those two counties.
>>>>>
>>>>> —CGE
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 5, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Boyle, Francis A via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where would China be today without Mao's Good Ole Cultural Revolution?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fab
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Francis A. Boyle
>>>>>> Law Building
>>>>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
>>>>>> Champaign IL 61820 USA
>>>>>> 217-333-7954 (phone)
>>>>>> 217-244-1478 (fax)
>>>>>> (personal comments only)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Boyle, Francis A
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 10:11 AM
>>>>>> To: 'C G Estabrook' <cgestabrook at gmail.com>; Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
>>>>>> Cc: David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>; Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com>; Peace-discuss <Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>>> Subject: RE: [Peace-discuss] Guest Commentary by Carl in NG
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah, Mao's Good Ole Cultural Revolution. Fab.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Francis A. Boyle
>>>>>> Law Building
>>>>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
>>>>>> Champaign IL 61820 USA
>>>>>> 217-333-7954 (phone)
>>>>>> 217-244-1478 (fax)
>>>>>> (personal comments only)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com]
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 10:06 AM
>>>>>> To: Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>
>>>>>> Cc: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>; Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com>; Peace-discuss <Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Guest Commentary by Carl in NG
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “…can’t allow…”?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who gets to do the allowing? 百花齐放，百家争鸣
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ('"Let a hundred flowers bloom; let a hundred schools of thought contend" is the policy for promoting progress in the arts and the sciences and a flourishing socialist culture in our land.')
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Nov 5, 2017, at 9:26 AM, Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carl
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My point is that these discussions on the Peace Discuss List, with so many ad hominids, with people who clearly support war and destruction, and not with sound arguments, but with goals to merely trash everything we say, as trolls, is a deterrent to folks with real interests in the topic of “anti-war” and peace.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> George Orwell likely was not referring to the internet back in the day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is probably why we can’t allow anything other than “announcements” on the Peace List. I don’t like it, but understand it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> PS Misspelling is due to “spell check.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 5, 2017, at 06:36, Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For sure Carl. And I am very happy to be doing it with you all. Fab.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Francis A. Boyle
>>>>>>>> Law Building
>>>>>>>> 504 E. Pennsylvania Ave.
>>>>>>>> Champaign IL 61820 USA
>>>>>>>> 217-333-7954 (phone)
>>>>>>>> 217-244-1478 (fax)
>>>>>>>> (personal comments only)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: C G Estabrook [mailto:cgestabrook at gmail.com]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 8:31 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Karen Aram <karenaram at hotmail.com>; David Green <davegreen84 at yahoo.com>; Stuart Levy <stuartnlevy at gmail.com>; Peace-discuss <Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Guest Commentary by Carl in NG
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And the political establishment is desperately using the comic figure of Donald Trump to distract us from the crimes of Obama and Clinton (which Trump continues).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Exposing and opposing those crimes, past and present, are what people like us, who have the leisure to do so, should be doing - as you are. —CGE
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 5, 2017, at 8:12 AM, Boyle, Francis A <fboyle at illinois.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh. And this is what Roger told about Mr. Alwaki’s 16 year old son, a US citizen drone murdered to death by KillerKoh/Clinton/Obama et al:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "This piece of shit doesn't do you any honor - the kid was killed because he went to where his Dad was recruiting and training Americans to kill Americans –"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> According to the Intercept Expose on the Obama/Clinton/KillerKoh drone murder campaign, their CIA source told the Intercept that Mr. Alwaki’s child was deliberately murdered. And now we have killed his daughter. Corruption of Blood. Just like what Kings used to do during the Middle Ages. Kings Obama/Trump. Now prohibited by the United States Constitution. But as President George Bush Jr once said about the Constitution: “It’s just a goddam’ piece of paper!” Ditto for Harvard Law Obama. Ditto for Yale Law Clinton. Ditto for Harvard/Yale Law Killer Koh. Ditto for the Dean and Faculty of the University of Illiniwaks College of Law. fab
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>
>>
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