[Peace-discuss] [Peace] Carl's posting related to alignment of "war and abortion"

Thu Aug 30 15:17:42 UTC 2018

Are you saying that "criticizing and attempting to discourage, those who take action on issues that are connected” (like antifa?) should be censored? 

How about debate without censorship, instead?

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 8:55 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> 
> Carl
> 
> Discussing issues in relation to “all is connected” is one thing, I give you credit for that, then continuously criticizing and attempting to discourage, those who take action on issues that are connected, is another. You do both.
> 
> 
>> On Aug 30, 2018, at 06:47, Estabrook, Carl G <galliher at illinois.edu <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>> 
>> I have not in fact “focussed  only on war” - but instead frequently insisted on the ingenuous SDS maxim, “Everything is connected!” - e.g., economics, identity politics, and the source of the present abortion contretemps - the ending of human lives. We’ve often said, “Our political views are that we’re against anything that kills people or destroys the planet we live on." (Those who defend abortion contend that abortion doesn’t kill people.)
>> 
>> Obviously I haven’t hesitated to “take up other issues ... in relation to labor, racism, people like Alan Dershowitz speaking at the U of I, the treatment of immigrants, ‘Sanctuary City of Urbana Revision,’ Democrats, identity politics, ‘Cost of War,’” etc., as Karen charges. Other members of AWARE have been a bit reluctant to discuss these matters on our public TV program, ‘AWARE on the Air’ - originally designed as an open forum to publicize them locally.
>> 
>> Of course it’s right that “Uniting people against war, requires we support other issues of concern,” but the proper course on those issues - and even on opposing the war - is not immediately obvious and requires discussion. (E.g., Is antifa right? Is it even antiwar?) - especially now, when there is a concentrated attempt by the US political establishment to distract the anti-war movement with false “other issues of concern” (notably, Is Trump Putin’s puppet? Did Russia “meddle” in the US election?)  There is a need to break through the disingenuous accounts - the worst I’ve ever seen - presented by MSM, the greatest propaganda system in history.
>> 
>> AWARE from its beginning, almost two decades ago, was meant to be common ground for C-U to discuss questions about US war that were not perspicuous and to act locally on US war-making. It’s not clear to me how AWARE censors of email and social media are pursuing the interests of the anti-war movement. 
>> 
>> --CGE
>> 
>> From: Peace [peace-bounces at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-bounces at lists.chambana.net>] on behalf of Karen Aram via Peace [peace at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>]
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 5:01 PM
>> To: bjornsona at ameritech.net <mailto:bjornsona at ameritech.net>
>> Cc: Karen Aram via Peace
>> Subject: Re: [Peace] Carl's posting related to alignment of "war and abortion"
>> 
>> Sorry Anne, your statement :
>>> "Carl is  correct in a strategic sense that the only way Americans MIGHT  join together right now while we still have a chance is if both sides gave a little on their "I will NEVER budge"  issues. A COMPROMISE, not full scale giving in”
>> 
>>  is not Carl, he will not budge, focusing only on war, and criticizing those of us who do take up other issues. Every rally, or protest that has been done in relation to labor, racism, people like Alan Dershowitz speaking at the U of I , the treatment of immigrants, “Sanctuary City of Urbana Revision,” he has criticized because it’s not related to war, and its organized by Democrats with whom he will not unite in common cause, or because its identity politics. He did finally attend a “Cost of War, panel discussion,” but wore me out attempting to convince him to do so.
>> 
>> Uniting people against war, requires we support other issues of concern, and he knows this well. I have been writing about this ad nauseum. You’ve missed a lot of conversations, being the newbie, the one new recruit to AWARE, along with James, though we have lost many more. The only issue he aligns the war movement with is “abortion” comparing it to "killing children with bombs.” 
>> 
>> The dozens of people I have met in this town who were once active members of AWARE, left primarily for that reason. We have the same problem with the local Green Party as well. 
>> 
>> Whatever ones personal views maybe on the abortion issue, they have no place on the AWARE FB page.
>> 
>> As to prayer, it can’t hurt, but to rely upon it only, well we have millions of people who had nothing else, and they have ended up dead. 
>> 
>> I will participate in no further discussion on this topic, or on the Peace List .
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 29, 2018, at 09:26, bjornsona--- via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Carl is  correct in a strategic sense that the only way Americans MIGHT  join together right now while we still have a chance is if both sides gave a little on their "I will NEVER budge"  issues. A COMPROMISE, not full scale giving in, is what we need. I have a friend who thinks this one issue has been a major cause of many of our woes because so many potential activists put blinders on to the rest of the atrocities happening in the world. Joining up is the only way we will get anywhere. I appreciate ANSWER, Karen.
>>> 
>>>  If prayer and cohesion do not work, unfortunately it looks like bigger wars, starvation, earthquakes might do it. See USGS for increasing size and depth of earthquakes  in Ring of Fire - moving to 6.5s (yet not corresponding release of pressure along U. S. Pacific coast). See web site SOTT predicting large crop yield losses across the globe from this year and difficult growth next year from volcanic ash covering sun and unpredictable weather. Hate to be gloomy..being realistic while MSM distracts. 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>> 
>>> ------ Original message------
>>> From: Karen Aram via Peace
>>> Date: Wed, Aug 29, 2018 9:09 AM
>>> To: peace;
>>> Cc: 
>>> Subject:[Peace] Carl's posting related to alignment of "war and abortion"
>>> 
>>> Carl’s letter to the NG below is fine, it’s his opinion and he has a right to express his opinion , placing it on FB along with the Peace Discuss List, is also his right. However, when he places it on the AWARE FB page, where he represents the AWARE group, I must object. I now see why the group has failed to recruit new members, and has lost many from previous years, given its affiliation with anti-abortion issues, not just war, that along with the election of Obama, on the assumption he was a peace candidate.
>>> 
>>> Carl is right on target, when his focus is on anti-war, which is why I have always supported him and AWARE, but now he has taken AWARE to the “right,” along with his apologist attitude towards Trump, thus I recommend the ANSWER Coalition with their local group now in Champaign, for those interested in supporting the anti-war movement. 
>>> 
>>> Please see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.N.S.W.E.R <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.N.S.W.E.R>.
>>> 
>>> Please also see Carl’s letter on the AWARE FB page below:
>>> 
>>> "Anti-war and anti-abortion efforts belong together. The contemporary anti-war movement grows out of the appalling fact that the US government has killed more than 20 million people in almost 40 nations since World War II - and has done so to maintain the economic control of the world that the US inherited as the only largely undamaged major country after that war.
>>> Abortion is the leading cause of death in the US today. An abortion obviously ends a human life; it ought to be opposed by all of us who say that our political views are that we’re “against anything that kills people or destroys the planet we live on."
>>> But most of my friends who’ve had an abortion or seriously considered it have done so for economic reasons. Most of them privileged people, they have been unable to countenance the burdens, financial and personal, that would come with a(nother) child. That’s clearly even more the case for those who lack their privileges.
>>> Those of us opposed to the destruction of human life - at home or abroad, before or after birth - must also be opposed to the circumstances that lead people to end unborn human lives. Medicare for all, child supports, free education, and a universal basic income must be insisted upon by those of us who are opposed to abortion and war.”
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