[Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays News from Neptune

Mon Jul 2 02:16:16 UTC 2018

Fair enough; at least he's not beholden to the black caucus.

On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 5:24 PM Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
wrote:

> Well, somehow he got himself elected to Congress, which is more than any
> of us can say about ourselves.
>
> Not only that, he defeated a Democratic incumbent in a primary.
>
> That doesn't seem like a bad start.
>
>
>
>
>
> Robert Naiman
> Policy Director
> Just Foreign Policy
> www.justforeignpolicy.org
> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
> (202) 448-2898 x1
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 3:08 PM, David Green via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>> At the risk of being irreverent, I don't know much about Khanna other
>> than the recent interviews on TRNN; but I hope he can develop some charisma
>> and personality, which might be necessary to effectively put forth a
>> dissident agenda, if that in fact is what he wants to do.
>>
>> DG
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 1:48 PM Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>
>>> There are institutions to hold them to account on some of their domestic
>>> economic policy stances. There's the AFL-CIO, for example. If you look at
>>> the last House vote on raising the minimum wage, every Democrat voted for
>>> it. If you look at the House vote on fast track trade negotiating authority
>>> for the TPP, almost every House Democrat voted against it, even though that
>>> was a vote against Obama, even though they hadn't finished negotiating the
>>> deal yet and the text was not public. But everyone could see where it was
>>> going. Most House Democrats listen to the AFL-CIO on domestic economic
>>> policy, including on trade policy, even against a Democratic President.
>>>
>>> Bill Clinton broke free of the AFL-CIO on trade at the presidential
>>> level. And since then, up until the present, there hasn't been a Democratic
>>> presidential nominee who didn't accept the Bill Clinton framework on trade.
>>> This is a key reason that Trump got elected. A bunch of working class
>>> Democrats in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania didn't trust Hillary on
>>> trade so they voted for Trump to kill the TPP dead. I can't say I blame
>>> them for not trusting Hillary on trade. The AFL-CIO claimed after the
>>> election that they had the votes in the House to kill the TPP in the lame
>>> duck session after the election. I'm not sure that I believe that. It's not
>>> what the AFL-CIO was saying before the election. I'm pretty sure that was a
>>> lie to cover up the AFL-CIO's role in the debacle. The AFL-CIO could have
>>> killed the TPP at the Democratic Convention. The Sanders forces had an
>>> amendment to the platform against the TPP, which amendment was supported by
>>> the Hillary labor delegates. But Obama threatened the pro-Hillary labor
>>> delegates, saying: if you amend the platform to oppose the TPP, I won't
>>> campaign for Hillary. The pro-Hillary labor leaders blinked. And this left
>>> a lot of people with the impression that if Hillary was elected, Obama was
>>> going to push the TPP through in the lame duck and enough Democrats would
>>> go along to make it happen.
>>>
>>> But regardless of all that, regardless of the problems with the AFL-CIO,
>>> etc., we have nothing like the AFL-CIO on foreign policy, war and peace,
>>> nothing close, nothing in the same league, nothing organized at all. Just a
>>> collection of NGOs like Win Without War which are accountable to no-one
>>> except their funders and which are very close to the House Democratic
>>> leadership, especially Nancy Pelosi. And that's why we haven't been able to
>>> get a vote in the House so far on getting the U.S. out of the
>>> unconstitutional Saudi war in Yemen. That's why I'm trying to get Ro Khanna
>>> to challenge Nancy Pelosi for the House Democratic leadership. So we can
>>> get votes in the House on war and peace.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Robert Naiman
>>> Policy Director
>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>> www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>> (202) 448-2898 x1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <
>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> > On Jul 1, 2018, at 12:40 PM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss <
>>>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Carl, Your point is fantastic that there are no institutions to hold
>>>> so-called progressives or so-called liberals to any of their foreign or
>>>> domestic policy stances once elected. My Tea Party point, as I am sure you
>>>> understand,  is that there are no institutions to hold so-called
>>>> conservatives to their party policies either, once elected. If there were,
>>>> we would have a balanced budget and a decreasing deficit. Facts being
>>>> facts,  America has only One Party, no matter what label or geographic
>>>> direction it gives itself to attempt to gaslight the gullible.
>>>> >
>>>> > That old saying, that a problem cannot be solved at the level of the
>>>> mindset that created the problem in the first place, must be true here. The
>>>> One Party that serves its education-prison- military-industrial corporate
>>>> owners is the REAL master player of Identity Politics: splitting un-AWARE
>>>> Americans first into Republicans & Democrats, and then into Libertarians,
>>>> Conservatives, Christians, Deplorables, Liberals, the Left, Anti-.fa,
>>>> millenniels, ad infinitum, ad nauseum.
>>>> >
>>>> > Conservative, liberal, left and right, as you and Counterpunch have
>>>> demonstrated, no longer mean what the words meant in years past. Those few
>>>> Americans who may believe any of the baloney being served us under those
>>>> labels are beyond convincing or worth discussing at this point. They will
>>>> just have to be dragged along as the rest of us change history.  A sports
>>>> "us" vs. "them" mentality will bury all of us if the "us" and "them" remain
>>>> fake Democrats & Republicans, liberals or conservatives. The only "us" that
>>>> means anything are the 99% and the only "them" that means anything are the
>>>> 8, 000 people in the world with half the world's wealth. The 1500
>>>> billionaires . The alphabet agencies & the oil companies. I may not know
>>>> all the "thems" - I sure know the "us".
>>>> >
>>>> > I had stopped watching "Real Time with Bill Maher" because he was
>>>> such a staunch Hillary supporter. However, if you had a chance to catch his
>>>> show last Friday, 6/29/18, it was interesting. Guest  Lawrence Wilkerson,
>>>> debunking Russiagate, and Bill and Michael Moore begging Americans to get
>>>> out in the streets against fascism. Michael Moore was nearly crying. There
>>>> was such a sense of urgency and that things have gone too far.
>>>> >
>>>> > Needless to say- not a Happy 4th .
>>>> > Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>>> >
>>>> > ------ Original message------
>>>> > From: Carl G. Estabrook
>>>> > Date: Sun, Jul 1, 2018 12:54 AM
>>>> > To: bjornsona at ameritech.net;
>>>> > Cc: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss;Karen Aram;Robert
>>>> Naiman;peace-discuss at anti-war.net;
>>>> > Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays
>>>> News from Neptune
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> https://www.blackagendareport.com/magical-thinking-vs-sober-analysis-ocasio-cortez-victory-ny
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > "In my previous piece and Facebook posts I never touched on how
>>>> socialist Ocasio-Cortez is or isn't nor on her foreign policy stands if she
>>>> has any, which Berniecrats frequently don't, something that ought to make
>>>> us a little uneasy. Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist too, just with
>>>> an imperialist foreign policy. I did say that progressive candidates and
>>>> officeholders do sometimes flip, a little at a time or all at once, and
>>>> when they do we have no institutions with which to punish them. "Feet to
>>>> the fire" and "holding them accountable" are actually the phrases of
>>>> magical thinkers because no means have yet been devised which enable the
>>>> left to do those things.
>>>> >
>>>> > "I got in trouble for observing that while we can elect progressives
>>>> from time to time we cannot compel them to remain that way. Until we figure
>>>> out how to build institutions that can, we are at the mercy of their
>>>> individual moral and political compasses. The need to develop left
>>>> institutions to which progressive candidates can be held responsible is an
>>>> acute one, which the Nation in its slavish devotion to the Democratic party
>>>> predictably ignores. Noting this truth got me accused of being a petty,
>>>> lazy purist and ultraleftist. Oh well. Sober analysis may not be what some
>>>> people wanna hear at a victory party where everybody’s popping champagne
>>>> corks, dancing the electric slide and toasting the universal lessons of the
>>>> Ocasio-Cortez victory without the bother of real analysis…"
>>>> >
>>>> > —CGE
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > > On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:04 PM, bjornsona--- via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > That Everyman article could be written exactly the same way 10
>>>> years ago to Tea Party Republicans.  Change "Democrat- change it to R
>>>> Republican.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Sent from my LG Phoenix 2, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
>>>> > >
>>>> > > ------ Original message------
>>>> > > From: Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss
>>>> > > Date: Sat, Jun 30, 2018 6:11 PM
>>>> > > To: Karen Aram;
>>>> > > Cc: Robert Naiman
>>>> > ;peace-discuss at anti-war.net
>>>> > ;Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss;
>>>> > > Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on yesterdays
>>>> News from Neptune
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> https://americaneveryman.com/2018/06/30/ajamu-baraka-pushes-dementer-with-the-ocasio-cortez-placebo-my-position-statement-on-ocasio-cortez/
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > It’s unclear where Ocasio is herself - but not the Democratic party.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >> On Jun 30, 2018, at 5:43 PM, Karen Aram
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Very good, thank you Stuart. Let’s all keep our fingers crossed
>>>> that she is able to stand by her declarations. Anything David Swanson has
>>>> to say is good enough for me.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 10:38, stuartnlevy
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> It is there right now.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> The
>>>> > antiwar.com
>>>> >  thread quotes Ocasio on June 27th that it hadn't been deliberately
>>>> removed, and she was looking into it.  So she did, and the statement is
>>>> there.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> I haven't compared it with the previous version, but David
>>>> Swanson says it is both lengthened and improved.  He supports it and urges
>>>> his readers to let her know they do too.
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>  -- Stuart
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> -------- Original message --------
>>>> > >>> From: "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss"
>>>> >
>>>> > >>> Date: 6/30/18 11:15 (GMT-06:00)
>>>> > >>> To: Robert Naiman
>>>> > , peace-discuss at anti-war.net
>>>> >
>>>> > >>> Cc: peace
>>>> > , "Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss" , Karen Aram
>>>> >
>>>> > >>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] In reference to comments on
>>>> yesterdays News from Neptune
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>> This is the piece removed from her website, wasn’t it? Has it
>>>> been put back?
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>>> On Jun 30, 2018, at 9:30 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > https://ocasio2018.com/issues
>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> [...]
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> A Peace Economy
>>>> > >>>> Since the invasion of Iraq in 2003, the United States has
>>>> entangled itself in war and occupation throughout the Middle East and North
>>>> Africa. As of 2018, we are currently involved in military action in Libya,
>>>> Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan, and Somalia. Hundreds of
>>>> thousands of civilians in these countries have been killed either as
>>>> collateral damage from American strikes or from the instability caused by
>>>> U.S. interventions. Millions more have fled their broken countries,
>>>> contributing to the global refugee crisis.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> This continued action damages America’s legitimacy as a force
>>>> for good, creates new generations of potential terrorists, and erodes
>>>> American prosperity. In times when we’re told that there’s not enough
>>>> money, Republicans and corporate Democrats seem to find the cash to fund a
>>>> $1.1 trillion fighter jet program or a $1.7 trillion-dollar nuclear weapon
>>>> “modernization” program. The costs are extreme: the Pentagon’s budget for
>>>> 2018 is $700 billion dollars: to continue fighting an endless War on Terror
>>>> and refighting the Cold War with a new arms race that nobody can win.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> According to the Constitution, the right to declare war belongs
>>>> to the legislative body, and yet many of these global acts of aggression
>>>> have never once been voted on by Congress. In some cases, we've even acted
>>>> unilaterally, without the backing of the United Nations.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> America should not be in the business of destabilizing
>>>> countries. While we may see ourselves as liberators, the world increasingly
>>>> views us as occupiers and aggressors. Alexandria believes that we must end
>>>> the "forever war" by bringing our troops home, and ending the air strikes
>>>> that perpetuate the cycle of terrorism throughout the world.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> By bringing our troops home, we can begin to heal the wounds
>>>> we're opening by continuing military engagement. We can begin to repair our
>>>> image. We can reunite military families, separated by repeated deployments.
>>>> We can become stronger by building stronger diplomatic and economic ties,
>>>> and by saving our armed forces only for when they're truly needed.
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> [...]
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> Robert Naiman
>>>> > >>>> Policy Director
>>>> > >>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > www.justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> >  naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > (202) 448-2898
>>>> >  x1
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 8:32 AM, Karen Aram via Peace-discuss
>>>> >  wrote:
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> >
>>>> https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/06/28/as-election-day-approached-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-removed-antiwar-foreign-policy-section-from-her-we
>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> >
>>>> > >>>>
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>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>>
>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> > >>>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >
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>>>> >
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