[Peace-discuss] [Peace] "...thinking makes it so"

Thu Jul 5 00:43:00 UTC 2018

> Mark, I agree with your statement: “fractures on the left are mostly caused by moles,” my point in respect to anti-fa…….

John: I’m not saying Malcolm X or Stokely threatened violence, but they were angry, and militant, and rightly so, in comparison with the pacifist Dr. MLK, who constantly preached “peace,” because MLK knew there was only one way to achieve the goal, at that time.  Even then he was painted as responsible for violence, to white folks who only knew what the media at that time told them. 
What Malcolm and Stokely threatened was “revolution” and it scared the shit out of the USG, so capitulating to MLK’s demands were a solution. 
Just as “social security” was a capitulation, solution to save “capitalism.”

> On Jul 4, 2018, at 16:51, Mark Morenz-Harbinger <marketype at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Wason, you're so full of ****. I haven't forgotten when you (obliquely, I'll admit, but nevertheless) threatened me and my kids in an exchange on the WEFT listservs when it was going through its turmoil. [For the record, that “chaos was caused entirely by non-violent means...fractures on the left are mostly caused by moles," has been my observation] 
> 
> While it is ballsy that you hover on these "peace" and "peace-discuss" lists, it is unfortunate that anyone on those lists gives you any credence. 
> 
> This is an old email that I seldom use, but when I saw this-- oh brother. I will now take the time to unsubscribe.
> 
> _Mark 
> 
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 7/4/18, John W. via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: [Peace] [Peace-discuss] "...thinking makes it so"
> To: "Karen Aram" <karenaram at hotmail.com>
> Cc: "peace" <peace at lists.chambana.net>, "Peace Discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
> Date: Wednesday, July 4, 2018, 1:04 PM
> 
> 
> I would add that Malcolm X, whom we
> thought of and still think of today as being much more
> "militant" than MLK, really didn't do anything
> more than preach the necessity, at times, of Black
> self-defense.  He didn't foment violence for the sake
> of disruption.  Nor, I might add further, did the Black
> Panthers or Stokely Carmichael or H. Rap Brown or any of the
> other more "militant" Black leaders of the
> time.
> John Wason
> again
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 2:58
> PM, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> If this was on
> Facebook I would "Like" it, Karen.  Absolutely
> right.
> John
> Wason
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 9:53
> AM, Karen Aram via Peace <peace at lists.chambana.net>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-fa does support violence, in that its “planned
> fight back” its “planned defensive attacks,” as if
> military or police. It creates chaos, and chaos leads to
> violence and disintegration of the left, thus with chaos the
> government, and ruling
>  elite wins.  There are historical examples proving
> this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  One does not have to be a pacifist, one does not need
> to oppose uprisings, but chaos, leads to violence and
> disintegration of the left. 
> 
> 
> 
> No movement/revolution using violence has ever
> succeeded. MLK knew this, perhaps he couldn’t have
> accomplished what he did without the threat of Malcolm X,
> but Malcolm would never have been able to accomplish what
> MLK did.
> 
> 
> 
> Only civil resistance succeeds.
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 4, 2018, at 06:53, Harry Mickalide via Peace
> <peace at lists.chambana.net>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that Antifa doesn't expect
> punishment. It's that they
> risk punishment in order to defend us and fight
> fascism.
> 
> 
> 
> In fact, if we're going to compare the difference
> between thought and action, we here on the Internet are
> thinking about creating a just world, while people
> in Antifa are in the streets actually
> doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is an article where multiple people thank Antifa
> for defending them from Nazis. 
> 
> 
> http://www.slate.com/articles/
> news_and_politics/politics/201
> 7/08/what_the_alt_left_was_act
> ually_doing_in_charlottesville .html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at
> 11:06 PM, David Green via Peace 
> <peace at lists.chambana.net>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm not sure of the precise origin of the
> notion of "hate crimes" in the law in our own
> country, if there is such an origin; but my sense--perhaps
> more directly applicable to European and Canadian laws that
> directly monitor speech--has
>  long been that what Norman Finkelstein has called the
> "Holocaust Industry" contributed to the
> development of such a notion, by equating the actuality of
> the Holocaust, anti-semitic beliefs, and criticism of
> Israel's very real crimes.
> 
> 
> 
> DG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:47 PM C G Estabrook
> <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> It might mean
> (a) opinion constitutes moral worth - "it’s
> good/evil if you think it is”; or
> (b) opinion misinterprets moral worth - "it’s
> good, but you mistakenly think it evil.”
> 
> 
> 
> HAMLET, 2.2===========================
> ======================
> 
> • Hamlet. ... What
> news ?
> 
> 
> • Rosencrantz. None,
> my lord, but that the world's grown honest.
> • Hamlet. Then is
> doomsday near! But your news is not true. Let me 
> 
> question more in particular. What have you, my good
> friends, 
> 
> deserved at the hands of Fortune that she sends you to
> prison 
> 
> hither?
> 
> 
> •
> Guildenstern. Prison, my lord?
> 
> 
> •
> Hamlet. Denmark's a prison. 
> 
> 
> • Rosencrantz. Then
> is the world one.
> 
> 
> • Hamlet. A goodly
> one; in which there are many confines, wards, and 
> 
> dungeons, Denmark being one o' th' worst.
> 
> 
> • Rosencrantz. We
> think not so, my lord.
> 
> 
> • Hamlet. Why, then
> 'tis none to you; for there is nothing either good 
> 
> or bad but thinking makes it so. To me it is a prison.
> 
> 
> • Rosencrantz. Why,
> then your ambition makes it one. 'Tis too narrow for
> your 
> 
> mind.
> 
> 
> • Hamlet. O God, I
> could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a 
> 
> king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad
> dreams.
> 
> 
> •
> Guildenstern. Which dreams indeed are ambition; for the
> very substance of 
> 
> the ambitious is merely the shadow of a dream.
> 
> 
> • Hamlet. A dream
> itself is but a shadow.
> 
> 
> •
> Rosencrantz. Truly, and I hold ambition of so airy and
> light a quality that 
> 
> it is but a shadow's shadow. 
> 
> 
> • Hamlet. Then are
> our beggars bodies, and our monarchs and
> outstretch'd 
> 
> heroes the beggars' shadows. Shall we to th' court?
> for, by my 
> 
> fay, I cannot reason.
> 
> ==============================
> ===========================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jul 3, 2018, at 9:08 PM, David Green via Peace
> <peace at lists.chambana.net>
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How is the line from Hamlet
> misunderstood?
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 6:57 PM C G Estabrook
> via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.
> net> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> One of the most misunderstood lines in Shakespeare is
> Hamlet’s “...there is nothing either good or bad, but
> thinking makes it so.”
> 
> 
> 
> Here a FOA (Friend of AWARE) brilliantly applies it to
> current US politics (h/t K. Aram):
> 
> 
> 
> "Today I had two discussions, one with people
> advocating hate crime laws, and another with people
> defending Antifa, and it occurred to me that they were
> pretty much the same people.
> 
> 
> 
> "Hate crime laws are actually thought crime laws, in
> that they take what is already a crime, and add years to the
> sentence if the perp was thinking bad thoughts when they
> committed the crime.
> 
> 
> 
> "Antifas are people who commit crimes, and expect to go
> unpunished at all, because they were thinking good thoughts
> when they committed the crime.
> 
> 
> 
> "This is magical thinking, the idea that thoughts are
> more important than reality. This is very American, since we
> have had multiple Think Yourself Rich fads, from Napoleon
> Hill to Oprah. And we are earnestly told that having a
> president who 'believes' in climate
>  change is more important than actual policy changes. And,
> of course, the latest fad in which you can think yourself
> right into the opposite sex. (And not in the old 'think
> yourself irresistible' way.)
> 
> 
> 
> "I think I'll just be over here, in the corner,
> visualizing peace.” --Paula
> Densnow
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ______________________________
> _________________
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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