[Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal

Thu Jul 12 21:47:30 UTC 2018

I’lll believe it when I see it - or when the USG reverses its war-making and -mongering.

Anything up to that is posturing and propaganda. “The US seeks peace, but, unfortunately…"

> On Jul 12, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> wrote:
> 
> Soon I expect an initiative from the Congressional Progressive Caucus to try to end the Saudi war in Yemen, invoking the War Powers Resolution to try to force a House floor vote on the unconstitutional and unauthorized war.  
> 
> Then the key question will be: whether the House leadership can be forced to allow a vote. 
> 
> The battle will be Democrat against Democrat, and Republican against Republican. It will be Progressive Caucus and Liberty Caucus against the House Republican leadership and whichever Democrats collaborate with the House Republican leadership. 
> 
> Here's a foreshadow from Adam Smith:
> 
> https://twitter.com/HASCDemocrats/status/1017477541031014401 <https://twitter.com/HASCDemocrats/status/1017477541031014401>
> 
> ⁨House Armed Services
> ‏
> Verified account
>  
> @HASCDemocrats
> ⁩ <⁨https://twitter.com/HASCDemocrats⁩>FollowFollow @HASCDemocrats
> More
> . at RepAdamSmith <https://twitter.com/RepAdamSmith>: There is a terrible humanitarian crisis occurring. I am working with @RepRoKhanna <https://twitter.com/RepRoKhanna> on a bill to stop us from blindly supporting Saudi Arabia’s actions in #Yemen <https://twitter.com/hashtag/Yemen?src=hash>.
> 1:35 PM - 12 Jul 2018
> 
> You can encourage support of this effort here:
> 
> 34 Reps. Threatened War Powers to Stop Hodeida Assault. Press Them to Follow Through
> https://www.change.org/p/34-reps-threatened-war-powers-to-stop-hodeida-assault-press-them-to-follow-through <https://www.change.org/p/34-reps-threatened-war-powers-to-stop-hodeida-assault-press-them-to-follow-through>
> 
>   
> 
> Robert Naiman
> Policy Director
> Just Foreign Policy
> www.justforeignpolicy.org <http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/>
> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
> (202) 448-2898 x1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
> When, in our lifetimes, have the USG - and the Democrat party - not wanted to commit a horrible crime?
> 
> Identifying nice Democrats has not been a way to meliorate those crimes. It’s rather a mode of collaboration. 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Are you kidding me? Of course not. Who claimed that it was?
>> 
>> It's argument that if two groups of people are fighting, and one side wants to commit a horrible crime, and the other side doesn't, you should support the side that doesn't want to commit the horrible crime. You don't have to marry them. You just have to help them win, to the extent that you are able. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Robert Naiman
>> Policy Director
>> Just Foreign Policy
>> www.justforeignpolicy.org <http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/>
>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
>> (202) 448-2898 x1
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>> Is that a reason to support Israel’s killing now?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>> wrote:
>> 
>>> When I was in high school, I read an interview with a Russian Jew who had lived through the Russian Civil War. He was asked why so many Russian Jews had supported the Communists. He said: "There were two groups of people with guns. One group wanted to kill Jews. The other didn't. It wasn't hard to choose sides." 
>>> 
>>> Robert Naiman
>>> Policy Director
>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>> www.justforeignpolicy.org <http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/>
>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
>>> (202) 448-2898 x1
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>>> There were people in the American government that argued that attacking Iraq in 2003 was not the best way to control the Mideast. We could oppose the attack without supporting them or their vicious politics.
>>> 
>>> From: Peace-discuss [peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net>] on behalf of Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss [peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>]
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:32 PM
>>> To: C G Estabrook
>>> Cc: Peace-discuss List
>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
>>> 
>>> You're now making the point that I was making from the beginning. Anybody who expects that Russia will take its interests as they perceive them into account less than other countries do is likely to be disappointed. Accepting this reality doesn't require being particularly cynical about the motivations of the Russian government. It just means accepting that the Russian government is like other governments.
>>> 
>>> This doesn't mean that one has to accept a "vulgar Marxist" view that what governments will do is always reducible to or understandable by reference to crude self-interest. Competing factions articulate different arguments for national self-interest, and these arguments can have very different moral consequences, and some of the people supporting the arguments care about the moral consequences. 
>>> 
>>> So, for example, right now there are people in Washington who are arguing that continuing to support the Saudi-UAE assault on Yemen is not in the interest of the U.S., and the U.S. should instead pressure Saudi-UAE to stop the assault on Hodeida and agree to the UN peace deal. People who care about moral consequences want that argument to win, even if they themselves would be happy to see the U.S. empire crash and burn. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Robert Naiman
>>> Policy Director
>>> Just Foreign Policy
>>> www.justforeignpolicy.org <http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/>
>>> naiman at justforeignpolicy.org <mailto:naiman at justforeignpolicy.org>
>>> (202) 448-2898 x1
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>>> Wouldn’t we be shocked if someone said, “Americans always lean toward the side that serves their interests”?
>>> 
>>> In our case the interests are those of dominant social groups in this country - and in an age of neoliberalism, run counter to those of the majority, here and abroad.
>>>   
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 12, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  "Russians always lean toward the side that serves their interests.”
>>> 
>>> 
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