[Peace] Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism

Marti Wilkinson martiwilki at gmail.com
Sat Mar 7 19:03:05 CST 2009 

 You are avoiding my original question....

Really?

" What IS your definition of enpowerment?"

Taking the talk and putting it to action! It's short, sweet, and to the
point. It is also in my prior post.

I also understand why this particular message board has been referred to as
"Peace-Disgust" - While I would hate to miss out on any announcements
towards interesting events I am starting to get tired of my inbox being
filled with this crap.



On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 6:37 PM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:

>  So Marti !
>
> Good point you made about too lengthy of postings, BUT......
>
> You are avoiding my origianl question....
>
> " What IS your definition of enpowerment ?
>
> David Johnson
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
> *To:* Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 07, 2009 1:33 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>
> Taking the 'talk' and putting it to action. Martel Miller had some very
> sharp things to say at the last peoples potluck, he pointed out that it
> seems like all we are doing is talking, talking, talking and there is
> nothing really productive coming from the conversation. Seriously, has this
> particular discussion really managed to do anything other than showcase the
> attitudes and beliefs of the participants? I'm including myself in this as
> well.
>
> I agree with John that as human beings we need to speak out for one
> another. We are all neighbors of this planet regardless of our political and
> socioeconomic affiliation, but there is a need to be cognizant of key
> differences and to be willing to work through them.
>
> Lastly, I would suggest that everyone who participates here keep in mind
> that very very long emails often are not the most effective ways to
> communicate ideas. If someone feels the need to post the equivalent of a
> magazine article or book chapter it would be more productive to have a blog
> and provide a link where users can leave comments. Here the conversation can
> veer in so many directions it veers away from the original intent of the
> thread. Again this is simply a suggestion and not an attempt to dictate what
> people should say or do here.
>
> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 8:17 AM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:
>
>>  So what is your definition of enpowerment Marti ?
>>
>> David J.
>>
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* Marti Wilkinson <martiwilki at gmail.com>
>> *To:* unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net>
>> *Cc:* Peace-discuss List <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 07, 2009 5:49 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>>
>> The problem with being an advocate for social justice and empowerment is
>> it may also end up inadvertently lend itself to what a professor of mine
>> called "privileging the discourse" - For example if a person lives in Garden
>> Hills or the Douglass Park neighborhood it can be problematic when anyone
>> decides these are parts of the community in need of 'fixing'. One time I
>> posted some concerns about plans in the Garden Hills area and some of the
>> feedback I received was so condescending as to make me want to retch. On
>> another occasion I was talking with a woman who attended the U of I and
>> chose to wear a head scarf as a show of modesty, she said she found it
>> offensive when people responded to her as some poor oppressed Muslim woman.
>>
>> My idea as to what it means to be empowered may not be the same as that of
>> other individuals in this forum and that is perfectly fine. That being said
>> I also think that part of advocating for social justice is being willing to
>> deconstruct ones own privilege and taking a look at oneself. While I can't
>> address Ricky's comments directly, there is a sentiment or tone that I can
>> relate to - because there seems to be an effort to pontificate on, instead
>> of really understanding a particular issue or subject matter. Furthermore,
>> why should someone who has some privilege even attempt to 'speak for'
>> marginalized groups? This is a tricky situation and one where a road to hell
>> can be paved with good intentions.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 9:25 PM, unionyes <unionyes at ameritech.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Ricky, et al,
>>>
>>> Carl and his wife live a comfortable middle class life.
>>>
>>> I don't think they should have to appologize for that,
>>>
>>> They have had the blessings of the perfect triad ; hard work,
>>> intelligence, and luck.
>>>
>>> What makes them special, is that they could easily take the attitude that
>>> anyone not like them are losers !
>>>
>>> Carl's wife works MANY hours at the Catholic Worker  House helping and
>>> feeding the poor ( which could be any of us and many of us if economic
>>> conditions deteriorate badly enough ).
>>> Carl and his wife are NOT just about advocating charity, but ENPOWERMENT
>>> as well !
>>>
>>> I must say though, Carl is a " class traitor ", that is, a traitor to the
>>> ruling class !
>>> And I love him for it !
>>>
>>> It is admirable that Carl is not ashamed of his Irish working class
>>> roots, who ( the Irish ) were exploited and worked to death for little
>>> compensation, like African Americans, Eastern Eurpopeans, and multitudes of
>>> others in the plantation they call America.
>>>
>>> If Carl was like many people in this society, he would cover-up his
>>> working class heritage, but instead he acknowledges it and learns from it,
>>> to critique the current remnants of the plantation mentality / imperialist
>>> institutional structure in this society.
>>> Even if we may disagree at times with some of his views, we should
>>> respect him for the time and effort he puts into ;  articulating, analyzing,
>>> and advocating for a better country and a better world, for ALL of us.
>>>
>>> My hat is off to Carl and his wonderful wife for being who they are and
>>> doing what so few are willing to do in contemporary America.... " walk it
>>> like they talk it " !
>>>
>>> They can't help the way they are, and I am honored to know them !
>>>
>>> David Johnson
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "C. G. Estabrook" <
>>> galliher at illinois.edu>
>>> To: "Ricky Baldwin" <baldwinricky at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: "peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
>>> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 8:06 PM
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>>>
>>>
>>>   Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>>>> > Carl,
>>>> >
>>>> > I've been to your house, seen your car in the lot.
>>>> > When it comes to the reckoning you get diddly squat.
>>>>
>>>> Ricky--
>>>>
>>>> Reading "I have" for "I've" and "reck'ning" for "reckoning," you have a
>>>> couplet in anapestic tetrameter.  (Cf. Byron's "The Destruction of
>>>> Sennacherib":
>>>>
>>>>    The Assyrian came down like a wolf on the fold
>>>>    And his cohorts were gleaming in purple and gold
>>>>    And the sheen of their spears was like stars on the sea
>>>>    When the blue wave rolls nightly on deep Galilee.)
>>>>
>>>> And your couplet makes me think, in verse, why I left my island home in
>>>> Massachusetts:
>>>>
>>>>    There once was a man from Nantucket
>>>>    Who kept all his cash in a bucket.
>>>>    But his daughter, named Nan,
>>>>    Ran away with a man
>>>>    And as for the bucket, Nantucket.
>>>>
>>>> (Which reminds me -- I should call my financial advisor, Bernie Madoff
>>>> -- "Thanks to you, I'm considered well to do.")
>>>>
>>>> ------------
>>>>
>>>> My Attorney Bernie
>>>>
>>>>  I'm impressed, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>  I'm impressed, with his influential friends
>>>>  He's got very big connections
>>>>  and I follow his directions
>>>>  Bernie knows his way around
>>>>  and so I always do what Bernie recommends.
>>>>
>>>>  I am blessed, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>  I'm impressed, with the way he runs the store
>>>>  He's got Dodger season boxes
>>>>  and an office full of foxes
>>>>  It's amazing all the different things
>>>>  your average guy might need a lawyer for.
>>>>
>>>>  (chorus)
>>>>
>>>>  Bernie tells me what to do
>>>>  Bernie always lays it on the line
>>>>  Bernie says we sue, we sue
>>>>  Bernie says we sign -- we sign.
>>>>
>>>>  I'm in touch, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>  In a clutch, he can speed right to the scene
>>>>  and if I'm locked up in the jail
>>>>  with just one phone call for my bail
>>>>  he said to call his club collect
>>>>  or deal directly with his answering machine
>>>>
>>>>  When I dine, with my attorney Bernie
>>>>  He buys wine, from the rare imported rack
>>>>  That's cause Bernie is a purist
>>>>  not your polyester tourist
>>>>  Bernie waves the glass around awhile
>>>>  then takes a sip and always sends it back
>>>>
>>>>  (chorus)
>>>>
>>>>  I admire, my attorney Bernie
>>>>  I admire, any guy who knows his stuff
>>>>  Sure we blew a couple ventures
>>>>  with a counterfeit debenture
>>>>  But you win a few, you lose a few
>>>>  and like Bernie says you keep on hanging tough
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks to you, my attorney Bernie
>>>>  Thanks to you, I'm considered well to do
>>>>  Sure I made out like a bandit
>>>>  Just exactly like you planned it
>>>>  But like Murray my accountant
>>>>  told me yesterday, I owe it all to you.
>>>>
>>>>  (chorus)
>>>>
>>>>  On the dotted line!
>>>>
>>>>  (Words and Music: Dave Frishberg)
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>
>>>>> *To:* naiman.uiuc at gmail.com
>>>>> *Cc:* peace-discuss <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 5, 2009 5:03:20 PM
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Peace-discuss] Anti-racism
>>>>>
>>>>> I get something because my Irish great-grandfather was an exploited
>>>>> laborer in
>>>>> 19c. Pennsylvania?
>>>>>
>>>>> There is (practically) no legal discrimination or popular prejudice
>>>>> against
>>>>> Irish-Americans today (altho' I could tell you stories from New
>>>>> England...).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert Naiman wrote:
>>>>>  > I have no problem with making a distinction between legal structures
>>>>> and popular attitudes. I was making a different point: that the categories
>>>>> of "legal structures" and "popular attitudes" don't cover "racism," unless
>>>>> one expands the categories of "legal structures" and "popular attitudes" to
>>>>> include the absence of redress, since there are tendencies for disparities
>>>>> created in the past to be self-perpetuating, even in the absence of legal
>>>>> discrimination and popular prejudice.
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  > On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:53 PM, C. G. Estabrook <
>>>>> galliher at illinois.edu <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>  >> It's worthwhile to distinguish between legal structures and popular
>>>>> attitudes, even if there are areas where they shade into one another (e.g.,
>>>>>  >>  the non-enforcement of anti-discrimination laws, or prejudicial
>>>>> police practice). The same is true of night and day.
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> The civil rights movement ended legal segregation and contributed
>>>>> to conscientization of some regarding racial prejudice. For others, it
>>>>> increased racial prejudice (e.g., whites who concluded "the government does
>>>>>  >>  everything for black people!").
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> The latter reaction was encouraged by the long-standing elite
>>>>> strategy of playing upon divisions in the working class -- and race was
>>>>> always a potent
>>>>>  >>  division, as limited success of 20th-century union organizing in
>>>>> the South
>>>>>  >>  shows.
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> Jay Gould, American financier at the turn of the last century,
>>>>> remarked, "I
>>>>>  >>  can always hire one-nalf of the American working class to kill the
>>>>> other half."  He was not referring specifically to race, but it helped.
>>>>> --CGE
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> Robert Naiman wrote:
>>>>>  >>> "legal" seems too narrow. economic discrimination can persist in
>>>>> the absence of laws enforcing discrimination. in fact, discrimination can
>>>>> persist without being strongly reinforced by censorious attitudes, through
>>>>> customs and practices that may seem nominally neutral but have the effect of
>>>>> reproducing existing disparities.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> for example: a legacy of British colonial policies in Northern
>>>>> Ireland was that Protestant workers disproportionately held factory jobs. a
>>>>> foreman comes before the workers and says,"we have a few openings." workers
>>>>> tell friends, neighbors, cousins. as a result, the applicant pool
>>>>>  >>>  is all Protestants, and only Protestants get the jobs. no law
>>>>> said only Protestants would get the jobs. and censorious attitudes didn't
>>>>> have to be particularly strong for people to spread the news to their social
>>>>> circles which happened to be overwhelmingly Protestant. in such a situation,
>>>>> you would need affirmative action for redress. it isn't sufficient to say,
>>>>> there are no discriminatory laws, and the censorious attitudes aren't so
>>>>> bad.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 8:23 PM, C. G. Estabrook <
>>>>> galliher at illinois.edu <mailto:galliher at illinois.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>  >>>> [Racism refers to legal structures that penalize groups defined
>>>>> by descent. Racial prejudice refers to censorious attitudes towards groups
>>>>>  >>>>  defined by descent.  Both are present in Israel. Racism, but not
>>>>>  >>>> racial prejudice, is now largely absent in the US (altho' some,
>>>>> like
>>>>>  >>>> native Americans, may justly not think so).  --CGE]
>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>  >>>> March 4, 2009 SEGREGATION IN ISRAEL
>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>  >>>> Israeli Association for Civil Rights
>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>  >>>> Some 55 percent of Jewish Israelis say that the state should
>>>>> encourage
>>>>>  >>>>  Arab emigration;
>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>  >>>> 78 percent of Jewish Israelis oppose including Arab parties in
>>>>> the government;
>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>  >>>> 56 percent agree with the statement that 'Arabs cannot attain the
>>>>> Jewish level of cultural development'
>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>  >>>> 75 percent agree that Arabs are inclined to be violent. Among
>>>>> Arab-Israelis, 54 percent feel the same way about Jews.
>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>  >>>> 75 percent of Israeli Jews say they would not live in the same
>>>>> building
>>>>>  >>>>  as Arabs.
>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>  >>>> http://prorev.com/2009/03/segregation-in-israel.html_______________________________________________ Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:
>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>>  >>>>
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Peace-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net <mailto:
>>>>> Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
>>>>> http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
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