[Peace-discuss] Re: Re: [Fwd: Letter to the Editor: Forum
Submission (550 words)]
David Green
davegreen48 at yahoo.com
Mon Sep 13 13:19:12 CDT 2004
Dear Wayne,
I would encourage you to print my piece on the basis
of the importance of its contents. I put a lot of time
into carefully researching these issues, and to
writing about them.
David Green
--- Wayne Ma <waynema at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mr. Green
>
> I have not made a decision about whether your
> submission will be
> printed. We received another possible Friday Forum
> and may receive
> more later this week.
>
> I wouldn't hold its publication because of its
> content or tone,
> because I believe no opinion should be censored no
> matter how
> inflammatory or radical (not that yours is
> inflammatory or radical,
> itis a matter of interpretation). The decisions are
> made based on the
> timeliness, importance and constructiveness of the
> content--and
> whether there are other submissions and whether
> those submissions are
> better or worse.
>
> -Wayne
>
> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:19:17 -0700 (PDT), David
> Green
> <davegreen48 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Wayne:
> >
> > Does this mean that you're not going to print my
> > submission?
> >
> > I think words like racism apply in some
> situations.
> > Recently, your editorial page has taken on that
> tone.
> > When an entire religion is imputed to be violent,
> or
> > when an entire people is imputed to be vicious,
> that
> > is racism. When we define a group's behavior in
> terms
> > of character traits, rather than history and
> social
> > context, that is racism.
> >
> > Again, we need to have a debate in this campus
> > community about racism with the shoe being put on
> the
> > other foot. Jewish organizations and groups have
> been
> > exempted from this charge. If Mr. Sobotka is part
> of
> > the Students for Defense of America, they, along
> with
> > Illinipac, invited a very hateful speaker from the
> Ayn
> > Rand Institute last May. This needs to be
> explored.
> >
> > Moreover, charges emanating from the Jewish
> community
> > that are circulated in the newsletter charge the
> DI
> > staff with anti-semitism. This is a charge that
> should
> > be made publicly rather than privately, and should
> be
> > taken seriously. We need to have a debate about
> where
> > these charges come from, and whether they should
> be
> > taken seriously.
> >
> > There is much on the table. I intend to puruse
> these
> > issues with the DI, Muslim students, enlightened
> > Jewish students, and AWARE, the anti-war
> anti-racism
> > effort to which I belong.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > David Green
> > --- Wayne Ma <waynema at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Mr. Green,
> > >
> > > I apologize for Mr. Sobotka. His response to you
> was
> > > unprofessional,
> > > and I will speak to him about it. Sometimes we
> can't
> > > print all the
> > > letters or forums we receive, and sometimes
> > > columnists don't catch all
> > > the letters that are written in response to
> their
> > > columns if they
> > > published in the DI. As a result, I always
> forward
> > > reader responses to
> > > columnists in order to give them feedback about
> what
> > > the readership
> > > thinks or to make them aware of issues that
> readers
> > > have with their
> > > columns.
> > >
> > > I forward these responses in good faith that
> > > columnists will act
> > > professionally and respond in a constructive
> way.
> > > Upon reading Mr.
> > > Sobotka's response, I am extremely disappointed.
> > >
> > > In terms of privacy, technically, there is no
> > > expectation of privacy
> > > within the opinions staff. I don't forward
> letters
> > > to anyone other
> > > than columnists that are mentioned in them. In
> the
> > > past, we have never
> > > had a problem, because letter submitters were
> more
> > > than happy to
> > > receive immediate feedback from the writers they
> > > mentioned. And if you
> > > notice, opinions at dailyillini.com is a catch-all
> for
> > > all columnist
> > > feedback, along with the letters to the editor
> and
> > > forums.
> > >
> > > However, in the future, I won't forward your
> > > responses to columnists
> > > unless it is published.
> > >
> > > As for constructive dialogue within the
> Arab/Muslim
> > > community. I find
> > > it difficult when words such as racism and
> bigotry
> > > are used on both
> > > sides to criticize and attack. Some of Mr.
> Sobotka's
> > > opinions are
> > > extreme, but as long as I feel his arguments
> aren't
> > > extremely
> > > inflammatory, he's been given the right to say
> them.
> > >
> > > -Wayne
> > >
> > > On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:41:39 -0700 (PDT), David
> > > Green
> > > <davegreen48 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Dear Wayne:
> > > >
> > > > On Saturday, I submitted the letter you
> find
> > > at
> > > > the bottom of this message to the Daily Illini
> > > > Opinions Editer, who is you. This morning, I
> > > received
> > > > the following response from James Sobotaka, a
> > > > columnist who is one of the subjects of my
> letter.
> > > >
> > > > Exactly how has this happened? Mr.
> Sobotka
> > > is
> > > > welcome to respond to me in print, or
> personally
> > > after
> > > > the publication of my forum submission. But to
> > > receive
> > > > a response like this--and such a nasty one--
> > > before my
> > > > letter's publication is a breach of
> > > confidentiality. I
> > > > would like to inquire how this has happened.
> > > >
> > > > Beyond that, I think that Sobotka's tone
> > > speaks
> > > > for itself. He has a forum in the DI, and you
> are
> > > > welcome to publish his venom. But I think that
> you
> > > > should make an effort to bring the Arab/Muslim
> > > > community into this disucssion in a more
> serious
> > > way.
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > >
> > > > David Green
> > > >
> > > > --- james sobotka <sobotkajc at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:23:57 -0500
> > > > > From: james sobotka <sobotkajc at gmail.com>
> > > > > To: davegreen48 at yahoo.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Fwd: Letter to the Editor:
> Forum
> > > > > Submission (550 words)]
> > > > >
> > > > > David,
> > > > >
> > > > > Ordinarily I don't respond to the Matt Hale
> > > type,
> > > > > but since you're
> > > > > such a noted bigot on campus it's my duty as
> a
> > > moral
> > > > > being to stand
> > > > > against you.
> > > > >
> > > > > You're right when you say there is only one
> > > > > acceptable form of racism
> > > > > on campus, but you're a bit confused. This
> > > racism
> > > > > is anti-Semitism,
> > > > > known euphemistically as anti-Zionism. As
> > > Martin
> > > > > Luther King Jr.
> > > > > spoke, after a young man criticized
> Zionists,
> > > "Don't
> > > > > talk like that!
> > > > > When people criticise Zionists, they mean
> Jews.
> > > > > You're talking
> > > > > Anti-Semitism." (Encounter Magazine, Dec.
> 1969,
> > > p.
> > > > > 24) Moreover, the
> > > > > Roman Catholic Church â€" which
> knows a
> > > little a
> > > > > something about the
> > > > > topic â€" recently declared that
> anti-Zionism
> > > is
> > > > > anti-Semitism. Of
> > > > > course I doubt either of these facts will
> move
> > > you
> > > > > from your position,
> > > > > because while the moral people of the world
> were
> > > > > denouncing this,
> > > > > while the European Union was busy studying
> these
> > > > > problems, while Danil
> > > > > Pearl was being murdered for being a Jew, in
> > > short
> > > > > while the rest of
> > > > > the world gradually became aware of the
> growing
> > > > > danger of
> > > > > anti-Semitism promising "Never Again" you
> sir
> > > > > encouraged these natural
> > > > > demons to rise up.
> > > > >
> > > > > And that, Mr. Green, is why you are the most
> > > notable
> > > > > bigot on campus.
> > > > >
> > > > > I pity you, I really do. You have been so
> > > corrupted
> > > > > by tall tales by
> > > > > the PLO that you can scarcely tell reality
> from
> > > > > fiction. Whether or
> > > > > not the first intifada was a popular
> uprising or
> > > not
> > > > > has no bearing on
> > > > > my opinion of Yasser Arafat. He is a
> monster.
> > > From
> > > > > the 1972 Olympics
> > > > > where his organization murdered eleven
> Israeli
> > > > > athletes to the
> > > > > present, he deserves swift death. Perhaps
> you
> > > don't
> > > > > realize it, but
> > > > > Arafat's PLO was calling for the liberation
> of
> > > > > Palestine before the
> > > > > West Bank was captured by the Israelis. I
> know
> > > you
> > > > > have a small mind,
> > > > > but perhaps even it could realize what this
> > > would
> > > > > mean for the Jews.
> > > > > A bullet and a shallow grave are really too
> good
> > > for
> > > > > Arafat, but the
> > > > > Israeli people are a moral people and will
> not
> > > > > descend into the
> > > > > barbarism of the Palestinians.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have no such trust in the morality of the
> > > > > Palestinian people. They
> > > > > have turned the West Bank into a death cult.
> > > Their
> > > > > children attend
> > > > > summer camps where they learn to be suicide
> > > bombers.
> > > > > Their leadership
> > > > > sends children against tanks, hoping they'll
> be
> > > shot
> > > > > for propaganda
> > > > > purposes. They cheered on September 11.
> They
> > > shoot
> > > > > pregnant women
> > > > > and children on their way to protest. They
> > > invade
> > > > > Christian holy
> > > > > sites and desecrate them. They use
> ambulances
> > > to
> > > > > deliver explosives.
> > > > > They barge into the Passover meal and blow
> > > > > themselves up, sprinking
> > > > > the blood of their elderly victims on the
> > > maztah.
> > > > > They describe the
> > > > > Jews as the sons of pigs and monkeys. They
> > > threaten
> > > > > the press. They
> > > > > stifle free speech. They protest the wall
> as
> > > their
> > > > > leaders make money
> > > > > selling Israelis concrete. They adore Adolf
> > > Hitler
> > > > > and hope to finish
> > > > > the job he started.
> > > > >
> > > > > Of course you'll probably attribute their
> > > actions to
> > > > > the Jews, just
> > > > > like I'm sure you believe that Beslan and
> the
> > > > > actions on Sept 11 were
> > > > > carried out by the Jews. With those
> opinions
> > > you're
> > > > > in the company of
> > > > > a large portion of the Arab world. I'm sure
> you
> > > > > know all about their
> > > > > fanaticism, their bigotry, their tyrannts,
> their
> > > > > stoning of
> > > > > homosexuals, their sub-human treatment of
> women,
> > > > > their jihad, their
> > > > > self-loathing, their dhimmis, their
> genocides,
> > > their
> > > > > slave markets,
> > > > > their child molestation, their murderous
> > > theology,
> > > > > their traditions,
> > > > > and their immoral prophet, book, and god!
> > > > >
> > > > > And moreover, I am sure whole-heartedly
> approve
> > > of
> > > > > all of it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Against such evil, it is rather difficult
> not to
> > > see
> > > > > the good in
> > > > > nations such as Israel, India, Britain,
> > > Australia,
> > > > > Russia, and the
> > > > > United States. Yet you have choosen to join
> the
> > > > > ranks of the souless.
> > > > > Mr. Green we are at war and the stakes have
> > > never
> > > > > been higher.
> > > > > Either we shall triumph or darkness the
> likes
> > > the
> > > > > world has never seen
> > > > > shall sweep the globe.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will not stand with those whose only hope
> in
> > > life
> > > > > is to take their
> > > > > own lives and the lives of others. I will
> not
> > > > > encourage a theology
> > > > > that makes killing and enslaving the infidel
> a
> > > > > religious duty. I will
> > > > > not mask the Middle East, but will actively
> seek
> > > to
> > > > > pull the mask off
> > > > > their lies.
> > > > >
> > > > > You Mr. Green have choosen to support, to
> > > encourage,
> > > > > and to cover up evil.
> > > > >
> > > > > And you son of a bitch you know it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have choosen to support, to encourage, and
> to
> > > > > expand whatever good
> > > > > exists in the world.
> > > > >
> > > > > And you son of a bitch you know it too.
> > > > >
> > > > > You and I Mr. Green are on opposite sides of
> a
> > > war
> > > > > of ideas. I might
> > > > > not have your degrees, your resources, or
> your
> > > years
> > > > > of hypocrisy to
> > > > > back me, but I have the hearts, minds, and
> souls
> > > of
> > > > > every moral man
> > > > > from Moses and Socrates to Sharon and Bush.
> > > > >
> > > > > And you know what else you son of a bitch?
> You
> > > know
> > > > > the truth and
> > > > > this knowledge daily eats away at whatever
> is
> > > left
> > > > > of your soul.
> > > > >
> > > > > My words have been harsh, but I do not
> > > appreciate
> > > > > being called a
> > > > > racist, and I doubt you do either. If you
> wish
> > > to
> > > > > discuss the
> > > > > relative merits of Israeli actions, I am
> open to
> > > > > discussion, but I
> > > > > will not discuss anti-Semitism as a
> respectable
> > > > > philosophy. Your
> > > > > views, if implemented, would result in a
> second
> > > > > holocaust. Either you
> > > > > are too stupid to understand this, or are
> hoping
> > > for
> > > > > it. I don't know
> > > > > which way you lean, but I have an idea.
> > > > >
> > > > > Until you are willing to accept Israel's
> right
> > > to
> > > > > exist, then please fuck off.
> > > > >
> > > > > James Sobotka
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:05:27 -0500 (CDT), DI
> > > > > opinions editor
> > > > > <opinions at dailyillini.com> wrote:
> > > > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > > > Subject: Letter to the Editor: Forum
> > > Submission
> > > > > (550 words)
> > > > > > From: David Green <davegreen48 at yahoo.com>
> > > > > > Date: Sat, September 11, 2004 6:00 pm
> > > > > > To: opinions at dailyillini.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In response to my critique of the
> "new
> > > > > > anti-semitism," Jeremy Glassenberg (9/9)
> goes
> > > back
> > > > > two
> > > > > > years, and to Canada, to find an example
> on
> > > campus
> > > > > > that is not fabricated. But he fantasizes
> that
> > > a
> > > > > > "racist" mob chanted "kill the Jews" when
> > > > > protesting
> > > > > > Netanyahu's Concordia visit.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jordy Cummings, an eyewitness, wrote
> that
> > > "a
> > > > > few
> > > > > > people engaged in violence. But in a
> situation
> > > in
> > > > > > which police, goaded by
> counter-demonstrators
> > > > > chanting
> > > > > > anti-Arab bigotry, attacked the thousands
> of
> > > > > peaceful
> > > > > > pro-Palestine demonstrators with tear gas
> and
> > > > > pepper
> > > > > > spray, a few tempers flared." As for
> racism,
> > > > > Cummings
> > > > > > states: "Pro-Palestinian speakers at
> Concordia
> > > > > have
> > > > > > never engaged in anti-Semitism. Netanyahu
> is
> > > > > clearly
> > > > > > anti-Palestinian and murderous, and wears
> his
> > > > > bigotry
> > > > > > on his sleeve."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Glassenberg writes that scholar
> Norman
> > > > > > Finkelstein claims that the holocaust was
> an
> > > > > > "exaggeration." Finkelstein is the child
> of
> > > > > > concentration camp survivors, and has
> claimed
> > > no
> > > > > such
> > > > > > thing. But he has convincingly argued that
> the
> > > > > > holocaust has been used to silence
> criticism
> > > of
> > > > > > Israel.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Meanwhile, the only politically
> correct
> > > form
> > > > > of
> > > > > > racism on campus abounds in lurid fashion
> in
> > > the
> > > > > DI.
> > > > > > James Sobotka (9/7) writes "if the media
> > > > > accurately
> > > > > > portrayed Yasser Arafat, would he have won
> the
> > > > > Nobel
> > > > > > Prize? After starting the first intifada,
> all
> > > > > Arafat
> > > > > > deserved was a bullet in his temple and a
> > > shallow
> > > > > > grave."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sobotka is unaware that the first
> > > intifada
> > > > > (1987)
> > > > > > was a popular uprising unrelated to the
> PLO,
> > > which
> > > > > was
> > > > > > exiled. Yitzhak Rabin, Arafat's
> > > co-prizewinner,
> > > > > > responded to the rock throwers by
> asserting
> > > "we
> > > > > will
> > > > > > break their bones." And so they did, well
> > > before
> > > > > > suicide bombings. Later, he was murdered
> by a
> > > > > > right-wing Jew.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > To add to this hateful chorus, Elie
> > > Dvorin
> > > > > (9/9)
> > > > > > claims that in Gaza, "Islamists stone rape
> > > victims
> > > > > to
> > > > > > death." I would like to see evidence for
> this
> > > > > claim. I
> > > > > > have seen photographic evidence that
> Israeli
> > > > > marksmen
> > > > > > aim for the upper bodies of young unarmed
> > > > > Palestinian
> > > > > > demonstrators. In terms of moral
> > > responsibility,
> > > > > this
> > > > > > should be Dvorin's priority. After all,
> our
> > > tax
> > > > > > dollars support this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dvorin asserts that "only countries
> with
> > > > > Jewish
> > > > > > and Hindu majorities are democratic and
> most
> > > > > > Christian-majority countries are
> democracies
> > > as
> > > > > well."
> > > > > > Tell that to those in occupied Palestine,
> and
> > > in
> > > > > > Gujarat. Because Dvorin defines terrorism
> in a
> > > > > manner
> > > > > > that excludes the actions of states like
> the
> > > U.S.
> > > > > and
> > > > > > Israel, he is able to maintain the
> illusion of
> > > > > being
> > > > > > on the side of good.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Zionist and neoconservative
> discourse
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > > > "new anti-semitism" is a transparent cover
> for
> > > > > Israeli
> > > > > > and American criminality, and for bigotry
> > > against
> > > > > > Arabs and Muslims. Such propaganda is
> promoted
> > > by
> > > > > > Illinipac and the Jewish Federation, which
> > > last
> > > > > spring
> > > > > > accused the editors of the DI, demonizing
> a
> > > Muslim
> > > > > > journalist. On September 2nd, historian
> Omer
> > > > > Bartov
> > > > > > leveled this charge in global Islamic
> terms,
> > > > > sponsored
> > > > > > by the Drobny Center and the Illinois
> Program
> > > for
> > > > > > Research in the Humanities. It was
> presented
> > > in
> > > > > > institutionalized racist fashion as a
> > > conversation
> > > > > > among Jews--no Muslims invited, none
> present.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again, this is the only acceptable
> form
> > > of
> > > > > racism
> > > > > > at the U of I, and its practice spans from
> > > > > > indoctrinated students to professors to
> > > invited
> > > > > > luminaries. It should be the topic of
> serious
> > > > > debate,
> > > > > > if those involved can allow Muslims to
> > > represent
> > > > > > themselves, and to connect this discourse
> to a
> > > > > > different reality than seen by those who
> claim
> > > to
> > > > > > represent Jews. The rhetoric of Jewish
> > > self-pity
> > > > > > serves the propaganda of American empire.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > David Green
> > > > > > 2709 Lakeview Drive
> > > > > > Champaign, IL 61822
> > > > > > 356-2034
> > > > > >
> > > > > > __________________________________
> > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
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> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> >
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