[Peace-discuss] Forgiveness Weekend program schedule

Mon Feb 14 00:05:50 CST 2005

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>
To: "Randall Cotton" <recotton at earthlink.net>
Cc: <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; "danielle schumacher"
<danielle at illinoisnorml.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Forgiveness Weekend program schedule

: Randall--
:
: My question was about the "overall goal of the event," not (as you rightly
: say) "Bevel's undeniably objectionable support of the Larouche and Moon
: cult."  I'd like to see spelled out what it is one is being asked to
: support -- information apparently absent from the web-site and publicity
: for the event.

I'm not under the impression that by attending, folks are being asked to
support anything.

I could be wrong, I suppose, but it seems to me that the conference is
educational and informative in nature, not a "rally", as you label it.

I agree that there does seem to be a lack of detailed information about the
event, especially considering its extent. The best info available that I'm
aware of (at that web address I posted) doesn't provide much beyond titles.
That may be due at least in part to the organizers being a bit overwhelmed,
I don't know.

Perhaps more information is available elsewhere. If not, I suspect more
details will foster greater attendance.

: My "bias" against the event arises from my suspicion that it attacks the
: wrong problem (and may even overstate it).  Do you think that there should
: be no restrictions placed on felons?

Nope, but no one has put forth such a premise except you 8-). For instance,
in Aaron's statement below, it seems to me that he is clearly only speaking
in favor of relaxing some restrictions in the context of felonies due to
"minor crimes such as possession of a small amount of marijuana, video and
audio taping of traffic stops of police officers or giving the police a
false name". Why do you leap from that to "no restrictions placed on
felons"?

: That's a very different matter from
: the the fact that many people become felons inappropriately, owing to the
: present drug laws.
:
: Aaron lists a number of these restrictions.  I don't know that they all
: exist.  (It is for example not true that an ex-felon is debarred form
: being president, as he says: the only requirements for president are in
: the constitution.).

Well, while that may be true about the President, it seems pretty
inconsequential 8-)

: Nor do I think that all such restrictions are
: necessarily inappropriate. Do you think that the "murderers, rapists, and
: pedophiles," whom Aaron mentions, should not be prevented from being a
: "public school teacher, principal, counselor, bus driver, coach or
: janitor"?

Again, you're implying that Aaron has advocated this, but clearly he
qualified the "public school teacher, principal, counselor, bus driver,
coach or janitor" bit with "someone who smoked a little bit of pot", not
"murderers, rapists, and pedophiles". This is quite unlike you, Carl, to
make such a mischaracterization and I remain mystified.

: Aaron admits that there is no literal disfranchisement of felons in
: Illinois (i.e., they can vote). But his ultimate demand is for "full
: voting rights restored to all felons who have paid their debts to society
: by serving their time" -- at best a misleading statement of the goals of
: the rally, apparently.

What "rally"? Forgiveness Weekend? Aaron never mentioned Forgiveness Weekend
in this piece (and again, I'm not sure why you characterize it as a "rally"
as opposed to a conference or forum). He only mentioned CUCFPJ, so if
anything, in that last paragraph he was listing issues that CUCFPJ is
concerned with (of which voting rights for felons is just one example).
Again, it seems to me that you're jumping to all sorts of conclusions
without rational basis. Why is that? It's not like you.

: As I said, I'm afraid that the Forgiveness Weekend is at best working on
: the edges of a serious social problem, perhaps inefficiently (the reforms
: requested will do nothing to lessen the prison population)

Well, decriminalizing drug use altogether, for instance, would solve a lot
of problems, granted. It would prevent charges and incarceration in the
first place. So yes, that would accomplish more, but it's an immense and
long-term undertaking by comparison. Who's to judge that suffering with no
relief for years until the grand shangri-la is achieved all at once rather
than focusing on smaller incremental relief in the short term (along the
road to desired ends) is somehow a better approach? Certainly neither you
nor I.

: and even
: wrong-headedly (some restrictions on true felons may be appropriate).

Which "appropriate" restrictions on true felons do you believe are under
attack by CUCFPJ? And on what rational basis do you conclude as such?

Thanks
R

: Regards, Carl
:
:
: On Sun, 13 Feb 2005, Randall Cotton wrote:
:
: > ----- Original Message ----- 
: > From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at alexia.lis.uiuc.edu>
: > To: "danielle schumacher" <danielle at illinoisnorml.org>
: > Cc: <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
: > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 8:11 PM
: > Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Forgiveness Weekend program schedule
: >
: >
: > : What, specifically, is the disenfranchisement of felons that this
: > : conference seeks to end? In Illinois, strictly speaking, there isn't
any:
: > : the franchise (right to vote) is restored to felons who have completed
: > : their sentences.  Metaphorically, disenfranchisements for released
felons
: > : include the prohibition of owning a gun.  Is this the sort of thing
you
: > : have in mind?  What else?
: >
: >
: > Carl, you may find an answer to your question in what Aaron said in his
: > recent "Public Square" commentary (included below).
: >
: > You say below that "efforts should be directed to penal reform". Does
: > Aaron's argument below not qualify?
: >
: > You seem predisposed toward disparaging "Forgiveness Weekend". I'm
: > quite certain that you're fully capable of distinguishing between the
: > overall goal of the event and Reverend James Bevel's undeniably
: > objectionable support of the Larouche and Moon cults. So I'm a bit
: > mystified as to why you seem biased against the event. Perhaps you'll
: > be willing to clarify =8-)
: >
: > R
: >
: > from:
: >
http://www.will.uiuc.edu/community/publicsquare/transcripts/transcript050128.html
: >
: > ----
: >
: > Peace be upon you all.  My name is Aaron Ammons, also know as Brother
: > A-Dub.
: >
: > I'm a local activist, husband, father, and published poet.  I am also
: > co-founder of CU Citizens For Peace and Justice which is just one of
: > the reasons why I will give you the following information concerning
: > felony convictions.
: >
: > When one hears that someone has a felony conviction, images of
: > murderers, rapists and pedophiles might come to mind.  But did you
: > know that a person can receive a felony for minor crimes such as
: > possession of a small amount of marijuana, video and audio taping of
: > traffic stops of police officers or giving the police a false name.
: >
: > Why should someone who smoked a little bit of pot in Illinois, for
: > example, lose the following rights:
: >
: > The right to apply for a Pell Grant to pay for college tuition and
: > books.
: >
: > The right to bear arms or be around guns or bullets.
: >
: > The right to work as a firefighter and police officer.
: >
: > The right to be a Public School teacher, principal, counselor, bus
: > driver, coach or janitor.
: >
: > The right to hold municipal elected office such as Mayor or city
: > council member or President.
: >
: > The right to obtain licenses for cosmetology, such as Barbers or
: > Beauticians.
: >
: > The right to volunteer at places such as the Boys and Girls Clubs of
: > America.
: >
: > The right to serve in any of the armed forces or reserves.
: >
: > The right to work as an insurance agent.
: >
: > And these are only some of the rights taken from a person convicted of a
: > felony.
: >
: > Furthermore, in Champaign, if a felony crime is less than five years
old,
: > landlords are allowed to deny housing to people who have been convicted
of
: > felonies.  Felons are also tax paying citizens yet are denied many of
the
: > rights other tax paying citizens enjoy even after paying their debt to
: > society.
: >
: > It is unconstitutional to repeatedly try and convict an individual for
the
: > same crime. People with felony records need to earn a living and yet
there
: > are many jobs denied to them even after serving their time.  There are
local
: > businesses such as convenience stores home improvement stores who refuse
to
: > hire people with felony conviction.  You won't be hired for a job with
the
: > city or park district even after serving your time.
: >
: > This sweeping perpetual noose must be re-evaluated, after all the
numbers of
: > felons certainly are not decreasing.
: >
: > And, in 12 states people with felony convictions are banned from voting
for
: > life. Florida is one of those states. Thankfully, people with felony
: > convictions in Illinois can still vote.
: >
: > The Illinois Constitution Article 1 of the Bill of Rights says: "all men
are
: > by nature free and independent and have certain inherent and inalienable
: > rights among which are LIFE, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness."
: >
: > However, a man cannot have LIFE and be sentenced to Death! Ex-States
: > Attorney John Piland once said that the consequences of a felony
conviction
: > are a death sentence!  One cannot experience Liberty when he is
harnessed
: > like a horse and controlled by the bridle of a felony conviction, and it
is
: > inescapably true that ones pursuit of happiness is more like a veil of
: > misery and stress.
: >
: > In Illinois we want amendments to laws that prevent felons from working
as
: > firefighters, bus drivers and counselors.  We must allow citizens who
have
: > made mistakes to still receive Pell grants for a college education, and
we
: > absolutely must allow them to participate in the making and enforcing of
the
: > laws that govern them.  Finally, we want full voting rights restored to
all
: > felons who have paid their debts to society by serving their time.
: >
: > ----
: >
: > : I ask this with a clear understanding that the War on Drugs creates
many
: > : (but not all) felons and the suspicion that efforts should be directed
to
: > : penal reform and reform (that is to say abolition) of the drug laws.
: > :
: > : The War on Drugs is a vicious attempt to control a potentially
dissident
: > : segment of the population defined by class and indexed by race. As a
: > : result, we Americans imprison more of our fellow citizens per capita
than
: > : any other country: with 4% of the world's population, we have 25% of
the
: > : world's prisoners.
: > :
: > : The War on Drugs should be ended, and so should laws on "controlled
: > : substances."  Our Libertarian friends are right: governments should
not be
: > : enforcing what we can put into our bodies.  But corporations should be
: > : controlled by public policy on what they can sell, and (accurate)
: > : informational campaigns by governments on the dangers of drugs
(notably
: > : alcohol and nicotine) are appropriate.
: > :
: > : I have the impression that the Forgiveness Weekend is at best working
on
: > : the edges of a serious social problem, perhaps inefficiently and even
: > : wrong-headedly.
: > :
: > : Regards, Carl
: > :
: > :
: > : On Sun, 13 Feb 2005, Randall Cotton wrote:
: > :
: > : > Folks were asking during the AWARE meeting today about what the
: > : > program schedule was for Forgiveness Weekend. On Feb. 3rd, Danielle
: > : > Schumacher posted the following website link with that information:
: > : >
: > : > http://citizen.freeshell.org/forgiveness.html
: > : >
: > : > Danielle, is this schedule current? Is it final?
: > : >
: > : > Thanks R
: > : >
: > :
: > : _______________________________________________
: > : Peace-discuss mailing list
: > : Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
: > : http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss
: >
: >
:
:
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