[Peace-discuss] ideology etc.

[John W.]

At 11:21 AM 7/28/2007, Robert Dunn wrote:

>when you say that the people are responsible for the war! I thought that 
>the people were being manipulated by the corporate elites? If that is 
>true, the corporate elites should be responsible for the war. Which is it, 
>the dumb, Bible thumping masses throughout mid-America, or the corporate elite

Excellent question.  You should have stopped right here, though.

I suppose it's possible that people who allow themselves to be manipulated 
share at least some responsibility with the manipulators.  But Carl will 
have the definitive answer on it.


>which many multinational corporations of the media and entertainment 
>variety are squarely on Liberal/Left side of the political spectrum. It 
>was a right-wing blogger who brought down Dan Rather and another 
>right-winger who broke the Lewinsky story.  That is why Democrats in 
>particular are so keen on "regulating" the internet and all forms of the 
>new media. The New Media is more democratic. Talk Radio is more democratic 
>and fun to listen to because it does not have the boring tone to it that 
>NPR and DN has!

Adolph Hitler didn't have a boring tone either....nerve-wracking, perhaps, 
but never boring.  A superb criterion to use in judging the mettle and 
veracity of radio news.


>Robert Dunn
>
>
>
>
>
>From:  "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
>To:  Robert Dunn <prorobert8 at hotmail.com>
>CC:  peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>Subject:  Re: [Peace-discuss] ideology etc.
>Date:  Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:18:23 -0500
> >Who do you think is looking down on whom as "less worthy," Robert?
> >
> >There do seem to be a number of people on this list who don't agree
> >with Jefferson's description* of the "two parties" -- which I think
> >is pretty accurate.  Perhaps that's whom you mean.  Regards, Carl
> >
> >_____________________________
> >*Jefferson wrote that people are "naturally divided into two
> >parties: (1) Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to
> >draw all power from them into the hands of the higher classes; and
> >(2) Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence
> >in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe,
> >although not the most wise, depository of the public interests."
> >
> >
> >Robert Dunn wrote:
> >>
> >>this is exactly why i have become disillusioned with "The Left!"
> >>The constant looking down on those whom have a disagreement as less
> >>worthy. This elitism has alienated working class America. Thank you
> >>Bob for your comment. Its time for the Left to turn back to its
> >>populist roots and purge itself of the University based
> >>intellectual elite class! Return to the union halls, churches, and
> >>out of the Lecture Halls!
> >>
> >>>From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> >>>To: Bob Illyes <illyes at uiuc.edu>
> >>>CC: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> >>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] ideology etc.
> >>>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:17:56 -0500
> >>>
> >>>These are such inane statements (on important issues) that I can't
> >>>imagine anyone taking them seriously.  But the issues themselves
> >>>-- America's relation to Israel, the goals of US/Israeli policy,
> >>>the situation of the Palestinians, the nature of the American
> >>>political parties, and the political economy of the United States
> >>>-- are inescapable if one wants to understand the war and oppose
> >>>it.  I thought that was what AWARE was trying to do.
> >>>
> >>>It's not enough simply to say that Bush and Cheney (or Clinton and
> >>>Osama) are morally responsible for the war and leave it at that.
> >>>We have to say why they are wrong, why the war is immoral, and
> >>>what should be done about it.  Nor can we possibly say that a
> >>>group -- the American electorate -- is not morally responsible for
> >>>the war.  Why, that would be to contend that capitalists have
> >>>completely subverted democratic government...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Bob Illyes wrote:
> >>>>...
> >>>>1) Israel is simply America's proxy.
> >>>>2) America is simply Israel's proxy.
> >>>>3) American and/or Israeli governments are consistently on the
> >>>>side of evil.
> >>>>4) Palestinians are not as responsible for the chaos in Gaza and
> >>>>the West Bank as are Israelis, but are rather as pure as
> >>>>wind-driven snow.
> >>>>5) Democrats are to the right of Republicans.
> >>>>6) Capitalists have completely subverted democratic government.
> >>>>
> >>>>These all are blanket statements about groups, and are no more
> >>>>appropriate than racism or anti-semitism. It is not the group
> >>>>that is morally responsible, but the individual. As Mort might
> >>>>put it, this sort of talk leads to more heat and less light.
> >>>>
> >>>>If we are to reach both sides of the isle, and Jews as well as
> >>>>Gentiles, this sort of over-generalization should not be in our
> >>>>literature. If there is substantial evidence that there is
> >>>>something to any of these claims (which I doubt), we should give
> >>>>our readers the evidence and let them draw the conclusion, rather
> >>>>than looking down our noses at them and assuming that they aren't
> >>>>smart enough to understand where the evidence leads.
> >>>>...
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