[Peace-discuss] ideology etc.

[n.dahlheim at mchsi.com]

My sweeping, and still largely correct dictum on this matter is that the masses are asses...  Thomas 
Jefferson's sentimentally tinged, wishful romanticism obscures the viciousness of life on the American 
frontier and the high levels of violence evident in American society.  I earlier defended Eric Hoffer's 
conception of mass movements (I don't endorse universal conscription), and I think his analysis in "True 
Believer" is correct.


----------------------  Original Message:  ---------------------
From:    "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
To:      "Robert Dunn" <prorobert8 at hotmail.com>
Cc:      peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] ideology etc. 
Date:    Sat, 28 Jul 2007 17:02:11 +0000

> At 11:21 AM 7/28/2007, Robert Dunn wrote:
> 
> >when you say that the people are responsible for the war! I thought that 
> >the people were being manipulated by the corporate elites? If that is 
> >true, the corporate elites should be responsible for the war. Which is it, 
> >the dumb, Bible thumping masses throughout mid-America, or the corporate elite
> 
> Excellent question.  You should have stopped right here, though.
> 
> I suppose it's possible that people who allow themselves to be manipulated 
> share at least some responsibility with the manipulators.  But Carl will 
> have the definitive answer on it.
> 
> 
> >which many multinational corporations of the media and entertainment 
> >variety are squarely on Liberal/Left side of the political spectrum. It 
> >was a right-wing blogger who brought down Dan Rather and another 
> >right-winger who broke the Lewinsky story.  That is why Democrats in 
> >particular are so keen on "regulating" the internet and all forms of the 
> >new media. The New Media is more democratic. Talk Radio is more democratic 
> >and fun to listen to because it does not have the boring tone to it that 
> >NPR and DN has!
> 
> Adolph Hitler didn't have a boring tone either....nerve-wracking, perhaps, 
> but never boring.  A superb criterion to use in judging the mettle and 
> veracity of radio news.
> 
> 
> >Robert Dunn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >From:  "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> >To:  Robert Dunn <prorobert8 at hotmail.com>
> >CC:  peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> >Subject:  Re: [Peace-discuss] ideology etc.
> >Date:  Fri, 27 Jul 2007 22:18:23 -0500
> > >Who do you think is looking down on whom as "less worthy," Robert?
> > >
> > >There do seem to be a number of people on this list who don't agree
> > >with Jefferson's description* of the "two parties" -- which I think
> > >is pretty accurate.  Perhaps that's whom you mean.  Regards, Carl
> > >
> > >_____________________________
> > >*Jefferson wrote that people are "naturally divided into two
> > >parties: (1) Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to
> > >draw all power from them into the hands of the higher classes; and
> > >(2) Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence
> > >in them, cherish and consider them as the most honest and safe,
> > >although not the most wise, depository of the public interests."
> > >
> > >
> > >Robert Dunn wrote:
> > >>
> > >>this is exactly why i have become disillusioned with "The Left!"
> > >>The constant looking down on those whom have a disagreement as less
> > >>worthy. This elitism has alienated working class America. Thank you
> > >>Bob for your comment. Its time for the Left to turn back to its
> > >>populist roots and purge itself of the University based
> > >>intellectual elite class! Return to the union halls, churches, and
> > >>out of the Lecture Halls!
> > >>
> > >>>From: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at uiuc.edu>
> > >>>To: Bob Illyes <illyes at uiuc.edu>
> > >>>CC: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
> > >>>Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] ideology etc.
> > >>>Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 15:17:56 -0500
> > >>>
> > >>>These are such inane statements (on important issues) that I can't
> > >>>imagine anyone taking them seriously.  But the issues themselves
> > >>>-- America's relation to Israel, the goals of US/Israeli policy,
> > >>>the situation of the Palestinians, the nature of the American
> > >>>political parties, and the political economy of the United States
> > >>>-- are inescapable if one wants to understand the war and oppose
> > >>>it.  I thought that was what AWARE was trying to do.
> > >>>
> > >>>It's not enough simply to say that Bush and Cheney (or Clinton and
> > >>>Osama) are morally responsible for the war and leave it at that.
> > >>>We have to say why they are wrong, why the war is immoral, and
> > >>>what should be done about it.  Nor can we possibly say that a
> > >>>group -- the American electorate -- is not morally responsible for
> > >>>the war.  Why, that would be to contend that capitalists have
> > >>>completely subverted democratic government...
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>Bob Illyes wrote:
> > >>>>...
> > >>>>1) Israel is simply America's proxy.
> > >>>>2) America is simply Israel's proxy.
> > >>>>3) American and/or Israeli governments are consistently on the
> > >>>>side of evil.
> > >>>>4) Palestinians are not as responsible for the chaos in Gaza and
> > >>>>the West Bank as are Israelis, but are rather as pure as
> > >>>>wind-driven snow.
> > >>>>5) Democrats are to the right of Republicans.
> > >>>>6) Capitalists have completely subverted democratic government.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>These all are blanket statements about groups, and are no more
> > >>>>appropriate than racism or anti-semitism. It is not the group
> > >>>>that is morally responsible, but the individual. As Mort might
> > >>>>put it, this sort of talk leads to more heat and less light.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>If we are to reach both sides of the isle, and Jews as well as
> > >>>>Gentiles, this sort of over-generalization should not be in our
> > >>>>literature. If there is substantial evidence that there is
> > >>>>something to any of these claims (which I doubt), we should give
> > >>>>our readers the evidence and let them draw the conclusion, rather
> > >>>>than looking down our noses at them and assuming that they aren't
> > >>>>smart enough to understand where the evidence leads.
> > >>>>...
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