[Peace-discuss] Will the American people have a choice in 2008?

[C. G. Estabrook]

Ron Paul has been consistently anti-war and anti-imperialist -- e.g., 
<http://www.antiwar.com/paul/?articleid=10523>.  And,  unlike Kucinich, 
he wouldn't eventually acquiesce and recommend supporting the Democrat 
nominee... --CGE


Ricky Baldwin wrote:
> And good riddance to Ron Paul
> [http://senate.ontheissues.org/Ron_Paul.htm].
> 
> But I think the point is not necessarily to WIN the
> presidency, but to INFLUENCE it.  
> 
> In my opinion, supporting Dennis Kucinich is an
> excellent way to do this for a serious peace and
> justice movement.  Ralph Nader is another.
> 
> But I think ultimately what we must begin to take
> seriously is our power as ordinary people, which goes
> far beyond our (somewhat marginal) ability to vote -
> that is, to cast the straw that breaks the camel's
> back on one night in November.  Our strength is in our
> numbers and our diverse backgrounds and in our
> speaking up and stirring up trouble for the status
> quo, when we choose to do it, to speak our minds and
> vote with our feet and heads and hands all year round,
> every year.  Our grassroots activism.
> 
> WE HAVE A CHOICE EVERY DAY!
> 
> Far too often, I think, the Left or Progressive
> groups/individuals in the US begin negotiating over
> how little we can get before the campaigns even get
> started, much less the primaries or - god forbid - the
> election!  We act like brokers - but with so little to
> trade, because we have frittered it away.  So many of
> us, who are pleased to call ourselves practical
> people, fly out of the gate repeating what the most
> mediocre campaigns/candidates are telling us we want
> or can get.
> 
> But campaigns, candidates, and even presidents have
> shown themselves to be much more responsive to a
> mobilized electorate with a fire in its belly, that
> makes demands, that tells THEM what WE want.
> 
> That's our choice.  Every election, every year, every
> day.  We can pull or be pushed.
> 
> And, by the way, I've always loved George Carlin - I
> remember when I was a kid and saw him stamping around
> the stage making fun of the racism and the Freudian
> machismo of shooting big phallic missiles over "always
> to bomb the brown people".  And if he says the
> American people are stupid (well, nobody ever went
> broke...), I take that as his way of critiquing the
> patritic hegemony, maybe chiding people into
> questioning why we allow these things to happen.  I'd
> count him on our side.  But he's not an organizer,
> he's a comedian.  Sorry, but let's not get too serious
> about his jokes, OK?
> 
> Ricky
> 
> --- n.dahlheim at mchsi.com wrote:
> 
>> Well, no...  They won't.  Kucinich won't be allowed
>> near the Presidency.  
>> Neither will Ron Paul on the 
>> libertarian side...
>>
>> "...Americans will probably remain willfully
>> ignorant of the big red, white and 
>> blue dick being jammed 
>> up their assholes everyday. The owners of this
>> country know the truth. It's 
>> called the American Dream, 
>> because you have to be asleep to believe it."
>> -George Carlin
>>
>> "When you're born in this world, you're given a
>> ticket to the freak show. When 
>> you're born in America 
>> you're given a front row seat."[6]
>> "I think I figured out why Americans are so stupid.
>> Think about how stupid the 
>> Average American is. 
>> Well, HALF of 'em are stupider than THAT!"
>> "[Americans] They're superstitious, they have these
>> beliefs, these primitive 
>> religious beliefs.  I mean 
>> they're just really kind of credulous, and gullible.
>> People believe in, for 
>> instance, hell and angels, okay, 
>> these are very primitive, very, very backward to me,
>> backward sounding beliefs, 
>> these are child-like, 
>> and that's the key, because they get you when you're
>> a kid, they get you when 
>> you're little, and they tell 
>> you there's a God, and if you can make people
>> believe, I believe this, if you 
>> can make someone believe 
>> that there's an invisible man, living in the sky,
>> who's watching everything you 
>> do, and keeping count of 
>> everything you do, which is good and which is bad,
>> then you can make that person 
>> believe anything 
>> after that, you can add anything you want, the 4th
>> of July shit just rolls right 
>> in, land of the free, home 
>> of the brave, the press is fair and impartial,
>> justice is blind, all men are 
>> created equal, your vote is 
>> important, the United States government is on your
>> side, the army is here to 
>> keep the peace, the police 
>> are on your side...Oh, and freedom of choice, this
>> is the big one, the illusion 
>> of choice, we're led to feel 
>> free by the exercise of meaningless choices. There
>> are, for instance, important 
>> things — not too many 
>> choices, unimportant things-ice cream flavors, what
>> do you want, we've got 31, 
>> the flavor of the week, 
>> the flavor of the month, but political parties-we're
>> down to two, jeez. Sources 
>> of information, media 
>> companies down to five, banks, insurance companies,
>> pharmaceuticals, chemical 
>> companies, oil 
>> companies-used to be seven, down to three, pretty
>> soon it's gonna be two. But if 
>> you’re lookin' for a 
>> bagel or a fuckin' donut, hey, what do you
>> want-pineapple supreme, hazelnut; 
>> we've got everything you 
>> want. Cereals, I counted, personally in the store
>> counted 192 different cereal 
>> choices, 192. 140 
>> different cat foods, I counted, and that includes a
>> tartar-control cat food for 
>> senior citizen cats, okay?"
>>
>>
>>> From: n.dahlheim at mchsi.com
>> To: Chuck Minne <mincam2 at yahoo.com>
>> CC: peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
>> Subject: Will the American people have a choice in
>> 2008?
>> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:14:54 +0000
>>
>> From: Chuck Minne <mincam2 at yahoo.com>
>> To: peace-discuss at lists.groogroo.com
>> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Half of the bankruptcies
>> due to not being able to pay
>> 	hospital bills.
>> Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:58:37 +0000
>>
>> >From http://kucinich.us/node/3859
>>
>> MODERATOR: Next we're going to hear from Congressman
>> Dennis Kucinich.
>>
>> DENNIS: Good afternoon. Good afternoon.
>>
>> It's wonderful to be here with you. And as I'm
>> listening to this discussion
>> today, it reminds me that you are the ones who have
>> to insist that America
>> reconnect...and its goodness.
>>
>> Yesterday, in the House of Representatives,
>> Americans were told that we can't
>> have peace; we have to keep a war going for another
>> year or two in order to have
>> peace. I voted against that because I believe that
>> we have to take a new
>> direction, which is: if you want peace, you vote for
>> peace and you have a plan
>> for peace.
>>
>> We're being told, in this state and other places,
>> that you can't have
>> kindergarten care or universal pre-kindergarten
>> care. And yet, when you accept
>> that, efforts are made to just cut short a movement.
>>
>> Today, at this forum, the sub-message is that you
>> can't break the hold that the
>> insurance companies have. Not a single candidate up
>> here has challenged the
>> underlying problem with our health care system. And
>> that is: insurance companies
>> are holding our health care system hostage and
>> forcing millions of Americans
>> into poverty with unconscionable premiums, co-pays,
>> deductibles.
>>
>> [Applause and cheers.]
>>
>> So I ask you: Is it consonant with America's
>> greatness that candidates step away
>> from the one solution that could change it all? A
>> not-for-profit health care
>> system is not only possible, but H.R. 676 -- a bill
>> that I've introduced in a
>> number of congresses (the Conyers-Kucinich Bill) --
>> actually establishes
>> Medicare for All; a single-payer system, and it's a
>> not-for-profit system. It's
>> time we ended this thought that health care is a
>> privilege. It is a basic right,
>> and it's time we ended the control that insurance
>> companies have, not only over
>> health care, but over our political system.
>>
>> [Applause.]
>>
>> Think for a moment if Lincoln had decided, "Well,
>> you know, there's just too
>> much resistance to this idea of emancipation." Think
>> if the Suffragettes had
>> decided, "Well, you know, we can't take on these men
>> who are determined not to
>> include women in the political process." What if
>> Martin Luther King had said,
>> "You know, we can only push so far for civil
>> rights"? Or if Cesar Chavez had
>> said, "Well, you know, no puede"?
>>
>> What if? What if we buy into this logic that says
>> that [we] can't have peace?
>>
>> We're being told here today to buy into a view of
>> the world which says that,
>> "Well, you know, the insurance companies run the
>> system. We'll work out
>> competition between the insurance companies, and
>> maybe we'll have government
>> subsidize the insurance companies."
>>
>> Where is our call for greatness? What if FDR had
>> said, "Well, you know, we can't
>> really do the New Deal"?
>>
>> I'm talking about a real deal for the American
>> people; a universal,
>> single-payer, not-for-profit Medicare for All, and
>> it's good to be here with you
>> to talk about it. It's already in legislative
>> forums. Sixty-two members of
>> Congress have signed onto the bill. Over 14 thousand
>> physicians have signed onto
>> the bill. The people of California voted for a plan
>> just like it. The Senate of
>> New Hampshire endorsed it the other day. The
>> legislature in Kansas put their
>> name on it and endorsed the idea.
>>
>> We can do this. Si, se puede; yes we can. Break the
>> hold of the insurance
>> companies on our health care system and lift the
>> American people out of poverty:
>> that's what my presidency is going to be about.
>> Thank you. 
>>
>> [Applause and cheers from audience members.]
>>
>> Thank you. [Continued applause.] Thank you.
>>
>> So let's talk; let's have a conversation.
>>
>> MODERATOR: Well, Congressman, you are the first
>> advocate we've heard today of a
>> single-payer health care system -- essentially
>> Medicare for everybody. However,
>> the last time my understanding is that it was on the
>> ballot, was in Oregon,
>> which is, except for Vermont, probably the most
>> liberal state in the country on
>> these issues; and it didn't pass. Where do you find
>> the political will for a
>> single-payer system?
>>
>> DENNIS: I traveled this country in the last
>> election; came to an understanding
>> that health care is the one issue that unites
>> everyone. Where does the support
>> come for a not-for-profit health care system? It
>> comes from all over the
>> country. But it's waiting for a candidate for
>> President who will lead the way;
>> and I've already done that. The Conyers-Kucinich
>> Bill, H.R. 676, is the vehicle.
>>
>> Now, how can you break the hold that insurance
>> companies have? Because, let's
>> fact it: in Oregon, they pumped millions of dollars
>> into doing everything they
>> could to try to defeat the initiative.
>>
>> This is really simple: You need a President who
>> doesn't have strings attached;
>> someone who is ready to confront these insurance
>> industries; someone who isn't
>> owned by the interests. Look it: Right now on Wall
>> Street, these hedge funds are
>> coming together for a million...
>>
>> [The recording stalls during the next few seconds of
>> the video. Consequently,
>> there is silence, along with an abrupt break in
>> content.]
>>
>> ...because simply, I don't have any strings
>> attached. I've been in politics 40
>> years. I've been a Councilman, a Clerk of Courts, a
>> Mayor, a State Senator, and
>> a six-term U.S. Congressman. I'm known for having
>> integrity, and a willingness
>> to take a stand, and for changing the outcome when
>> others say it can't be done.
>>
>> This is the moment that I call upon you, and the
>> SEIU, and the American people
>> to say, "Let's join this movement that already
>> exists, call upon the power of
>> our hearts and our intellects." 
>>
>> What are the animating forces? How's this: Half of
>> the bankruptcies in America
>> right now are directly connected to people not being
>> able to pay their hospital
>> bills. And, of that amount, 75% of the people are
>> working, have jobs. People's
>> whole lives are on the line, here. So the question
>> is, "Will the American people
>> be given a real choice in this election?"
>>
>> You know, this isn't American Idol, here. I mean,
>> really, you know? 
>>
>> I mean, I could come up here and do a little dance
>> about, "Well, you know, we're
>> going to take on those insurance companies." Oh
>> really? Are you going to take
>> away the profits? Are you going to remove the fact
>> that 31% of the money that's
>> in the system right now, of $2.2 trillion a year,
>> goes for the activities of the
>> for-profit system? If we take that money away from
>> the insurance companies and
>> use it for the American people, well, guess what? We
>> have enough money for
>> vision care, dental care, mental health,
>> prescription drugs, and long-term care.
>>
>> I'm going to call on the American people to stand up
>> for their right: health
>> care as a right, not as a privilege.
>>
>> [Applause and cheers.]
>>
>> MODERATOR: Congressman, we have an e-mail question
>> from James in Patterson,
>> California, who wants to know, "Why are health care
>> costs going up so much, and
>> what can we do to stop these increases?"
>>
>> And could I just add a question to that...
>>
>> DENNIS: Of course.
>>
>> MODERATOR: ...because, in the framework of a
>> single-payer system, people say the
>> consequence of trying to contain costs in a
>> single-payer system would ultimately
>> be rationing. So could you take us through, first,
>> how a single-payer system
>> would address costs and, also, what you say about
>> these sorts of concerns that
>> people raise about it?
>>
>> DENNIS: You know, think about this, now. The
>> insurance companies, when they look
>> at a single-payer system, a not-for-profit system,
>> they'll say, "My God, you're
>> going to end up with rationing." What do we have
>> now? Forty-six million
>> Americans don't even have coverage...talk about
>> rationing! They're not even in
>> the line. Okay? "Give me my portion." "No."
>>
>> [Applause and cheers.]
>>
>> Another 50 million people are under-insured, and the
>> rest are paying these high
>> premiums, co-pays, and deductibles. We've got to
>> break the hold that the
>> insurance companies have. 
>>
>> And their public relations operations will say,
>> "Well, rationing." The fact of
>> the matter is, this plan that I'm talking about
>> covers everyone.
>>
>> How do you reduce costs? Let's look at the costs
>> that are involved in the system
>> right now. Corporate profits, stock options,
>> executive salaries, advertising,
>> marketing, the cost of paperwork: all of this takes
>> about 31% out of the health
>> care dollar. What does all that have to do with
>> health care? Zero. Zip. Nada.
>>
>> I'm talking about creating a system, which, by the
>> way, is similar to that in
>> every other industrialized nation in the world. We
>> take the profit out of
>> medicine: health care is a right; it is not a
>> privilege.
>>
>> So how do we control costs? By having everyone in
>> the same pool -- everyone --
>> having everyone covered, and having the benefits
>> stay available to everyone --
>> whatever their income; no means testing -- and by
>> creating a movement.
>>
>> Now, I want to add something to an earlier question
>> you raised. And that is
>> that...my good friend Senator Edwards (he and I
>> campaigned together four years
>> ago)...he raised this question, which is *the*
>> question in Washington: "Well,
>> it's just not feasible to take this plan for
>> not-for-profit health care."
>>
>> Senator Clinton talked about challenging the
>> insurance companies but doesn't
>> really get to the ultimate challenge; and that is,
>> "Who controls health care in
>> America?"
>>
>> Senator Obama is still developing his plan.
>>
>> This plan that I'm talking about, I co-authored this
>> plan. I'm one of the ones
>> who wrote the plan. I know the way the system is set
>> up. The area that I
>> represent in Cleveland, people are losing their
>> homes because they can't pay
>> their doctor bills. And so, the question is -- what
>> it ultimately comes down to
>> -- is, "Who has the courage and the willingness to
>> take a stand...
>>
>> [The recording stalls during the next few seconds of
>> the video. Consequently,
>> there is silence, along with an abrupt break in
>> content.]
>>
>> ...breadth and depth of the American people, and
>> call forth our greatness. To
>> say we're going to change this. We're not going to
>> be trapped by these insurance
>> companies who give us diminishing returns, who
>> insist on a high-premiums,
>> co-pays, and deductibles.
>>
>> [Applause.]
>>
>> MODERATOR: Thank you. Congressman, you're kind of an
>> urban kind of guy. And
>> Ashley Osborne, who is a labor and delivery nurse in
>> Elko, which is a rural
>> county in northern Nevada, has a question for you
>> about how you would address
>> concerns in people who are in her situation.
>>
>> ASHLEY: Good morning. As you know, my name is Ashley
>> Osborne, and I'm a labor
>> nurse in Elko, Nevada, which is a rural area up in
>> northeastern Nevada. And,
>> commonly, I see moms come into my department with
>> pregnancy-induced -- severe
>> pregnancy-induced -- health care issues that could
>> be eliminated or caught early
>> with prenatal care. Unfortunately, they are unable
>> to get that. What are your
>> plans on improving health care in the rural area in
>> the U.S.?
>>
>> DENNIS: Well, first of all, this plan covers
>> everyone; rural as well as urban
>> areas, alike. Rural areas tend to be underserved.
>> I'm looking also at creating
>> an infrastructure program to create millions of jobs
>> -- rebuilding America's
>> infrastructure -- which would build hospitals in
>> rural areas. And rural people
>> would then have access, because access is the huge
>> question in rural areas. And
>> when you talked about women being able to get the
>> care they need, this system --
>> prenatal care, post-natal care -- I have a plan for
>> child...
>>
>> [The recording stalls during the next few seconds of
>> the video. Consequently,
>> there is silence, along with an abrupt break in
>> content.]
>>
>> ...doesn't try to stop women from getting the care
>> they need because there's an
>> insurance agent telling an OB-GYN doctor, "We just
>> can't do that. You're asking
>> for too much."
>>
>> This system will meet the health care needs of the
>> American people. We're being
>> told we just can't have those needs met. We've got
>> to start thinking
>> differently.
>>
>> Does that answer your question?
>>
>> [There is no verbal reply, but it is apparent that
>> Ashley nods affirmatively,
>> because Dennis continues by saying...]
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> [Applause.]
>>
>> MODERATOR: Thanks. And now I would like to turn to a
>> public health student here
>> at UNLV, Megan McCormack, who raises a pertinent
>> point. I mean, if there's any
>> place where you're interested in outcomes, it's in
>> health care. Megan?
>>
>> MEGAN: Hello. I'm Megan McCormack. I'm a junior at
>> UNLV here. We're spending an
>> increasing percentage of our Gross Domestic Product
>> on health care, while we
>> continue to have poorer outcomes than those
>> countries who are allocating a lower
>> percentage of their GDP towards their own health
>> care. How does America plan to
>> stay globally competitive with increasing health
>> care costs?
>>
>> DENNIS: That is a key question. I mean, in my own
>> congressional district, we
>> have auto plants that have been threatened and
>> others across the country have
>> been threatened, because the high cost of health
>> care is causing Ford and GM to
>> pay billions of dollars in health care costs. Now
>> Canada, on the other hand, has
>> a much stronger industry because they have a health
>> care plan for their people.
>>
>> This plan that I'm talking about is going to help
>> American business. It's going
>> to strengthen the economy. It's going to make it
>> possible for individuals to be
>> able to hold onto more of their money.
>>
>> It's true that many families right now are spending
>> in excess of $10 thousand a
>> year for health care. With this plan, only a
>> fraction of the money that is being
>> spent right now would have to be part of the
>> financing of the system. I mean, do
>> you know that 60% (right now) of the money that is
>> in health care is spent by
>> the Government? The Government has 60% of the
>> spending right now. If you
>> eliminate administrative costs, if you purchase bulk
>> purchase of drugs -- just
>> the way veterans do -- you start to come up with the
>> money that you need to
>> provide coverage for everyone, and that is a major
>> help for small businesses and
>> large businesses, alike.
>>
>> This patchwork proposal that you've been given here
>> today by the other
>> candidates locks us into insurance companies who
>> then take their pound of flesh.
>> And, generally, it keeps people from being able to
>> have any control over their
>> own budgets.
>>
>> I want to go back to what most American people are
>> experiencing: economic
>> uncertainty, because of the way the American health
>> care system is set up.
>> People are aware, no matter how much money they
>> have, that if they have an
>> illness in the family, it could wipe them out. Who
>> isn't going to make the
>> choice to take care of a loved one? You do what you
>> have to. But why, I would
>> ask you, should someone have to lose their home in
>> order to ensure the health of
>> a loved one? Why should someone not be able to get
>> the long-term care they need
>> for a loved one or have to sign on the dotted line
>> to give away everything
>> you've worked for for a lifetime in order to get the
>> long-term care you need?
>>
>> See, what I'm talking about is a real
>> transformation. I think the American
>> people are ready for that. But they need someone to
>> be, not just a messenger,
>> but someone who knows this issue and is ready to
>> stand up and speak out.
>>
>> Yes, we can improve our economy and save our
>> businesses, large and small. And
>> I'm dedicated to doing that. And I'm able to do it,
>> too. 
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> [Applause.]
>>
>> MODERATOR: You know, Congressman, earlier, Senator
>> Edwards...
>>
>> [The recording stalls during the next few seconds of
>> the video. Consequently,
>> there is silence, along with an abrupt break in
>> content.]
>>
>> ...payer Medicare-like option built into his plan,
>> and it would be one of the
>> things that people could consider in making their
>> health care choices. And he
>> raised the possibility that, if that were out there
>> as an option, and people
>> started choosing it and found out that they really
>> liked it, then the country
>> could almost evolve toward a single-payer system. Do
>> you see this as a real
>> scenario, given the other interests that are out
>> there; or do you think that, in
>> fact, it's going to have to sort of come down in one
>> fell swoop, if it's ever
>> going to happen?
>>
>> DENNIS: Well, you just answered the question. And
>> that is that, if you have
>> competition between insurance companies, everyone
>> knows what happens. That
>> doesn't drive down costs; it drives up profits.
>> That's the fact. If you say,
>> "Well, you're going to give people a choice" --
>> either be on a private plan or
>> being with the Government - what happens is that the
>> private companies start
>> cherry-picking people in the best health and then
>> you end up with what's called
>> adverse selection: those who are the most medically
>> compromised end up on
>> programs that the Government is paying for; and then
>> the Government program
>> starts to go down. You end up in an insurance death
>> spiral, is what it is called
>> in the industry.
>>
>> Now think about it. Candidates are up here
>> advocating that government provides
>> subsidies to the insurance industry. What's that
>> about? 
>>
>> [Cheers and applause.]
>>
>> I mean, didn't we have enough of subsidizing the
>> pharmaceutical companies with
>> that phony Medicare D program that President Bush
>> had? How are we any different
>> as Democrats? Think about that.
>>
>> Do you know what? Universal health care: oh,
>> everybody's for it. Almost is
>> resonant with that fellow in "The Music Man" who
>> says "There's trouble in River
>> City." Universal health care. You know what? Even
>> the insurance companies are
>> for universal health care...especially the insurance
>> companies if the Government
>> is subsidizing them. What a deal that is for the
>> insurance companies! But what a
>> rotten deal it is for the American people!
>>
>> We've got to have not-for-profit health care, get
>> the insurance companies out of
>> the picture. Health care is not a privilege, it is a
>> right, and it is a human
>> right.
>>
>> [Applause and cheers.]
>>
>> Universal health care...right! I mean, come on! You
>> need a president who didn't
>> fall off a Christmas tree. You need a president who
>> will be involved in straight
>> talk, straight from the shoulder. And you need a
>> president who doesn't have a
>> key in the back that is being wound up by special
>> interests to come before the
>> American people and tell them what the interests
>> want.
>>
>> I'm telling you what the American people want, and
>> I'm ready to take that
>> message all across this country, and I'd like your
>> help in doing it.
>>
>> [Cheers and applause.]
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> I have four seconds left, buzzer-shot. You want
>> not-for-profit health care, I'm
>> the candidate who can deliver. Kucinich.us. Thank
>> you very much.
>>
>> MODERATOR: Thank you very much, Congressman.
>>
>>
>>
>>   
>>   
>>   
>>   But judge for yourself, don't be afraid, Watch
>> This or This
>>   
>>
>>  
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