[Peace-discuss] U.S. House Passes Resolution Apologizing for Slavery

Sat Aug 2 15:45:04 CDT 2008

Just to play devil's advocate, you say you are fully of age; what age is
that and who defines that standard.  Why should a six year old declare that
they are fully of age and able to choose their commitments and bear the
costs of risking bad choices and their consequences?  I would humbly submit
that the notion of fully of age is a societal or collective standard and has
meaning only because is comprises a collectively sanctioned value and norm
of behavior.  Without a collective consciousness, there would be no civil
society with laws and rules of behavior regulating behavior and conflicts
among the individual participants.  It would be everyone for themselves - a
Hobbesian state. 

 Anarchism, I would suggest, only works if there is tacit condition of
common trust among and between the collection of anarchists, a common set of
values, goals, and standards of behavior among and between them, a common
assumption that all the individuals in the collection are all well meaning,
compassionate, and rational.  It also make an assumption that their exists
something similar to Adam Smith's "magic hand" that functions to guide the
interests and actions of the participants in a mutually beneficial manner
and direction.

As for Libertarianism and its emphasis on individualism, I would suggest
that such individualism only has meaning within the framework of a society -
a collectivity that all the members identify with and see themselves as part
of.  The only questions for Libertarians are the degree to which
individualism will be implemented and the areas in which it will apply; but
they still accept the need for a societal collectivity and the fact that
they are not free in all instances to do whatever they want whenever they
choose to do so but will be constrained in what they are free to do as
individuals.  Since you seem to feel that you are free to reject any
responsibilities that you have not personally and explicitly subscribed to
independent of any collective need for them or good that might come from
them, I wonder where, if not from society, do you derive your civil rights
to individuality, to freedom to act, and to choose in your own behalf.  You
are not going to tell me that those rights are "god given," natural rights,
inherent rights while the social civic responsibilities are not?

In short, I do not see your stated position as being a feasible one - even
as an abstract goal.  Note that I am not challenging the legitimacy of your
holding your position only the feasibility of the position.

From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj at pigs.ag] 
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 2:14 PM
To: LAURIE; Peace-discuss
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] U.S. House Passes Resolution Apologizing for
Slavery

I think you have appropriately classified me as libertarian and sort of
anarchist.

"This would reduce society down to a collection of individuals without any
overarching societal commitment or collective identity."

Since I am fully of age, I choose my commitments and I do not want any
collective identities imposed upon me, and especially not those identities
to which I do not subscribe.  I reject imposed collectivism as tyrannical
but realize that I have to choose what battles I want to engage in while
maintain my rejection.  I perceive that almost all of the time the US
Government does not speak for me at all but rather seeks to make me a
unwilling servant in a system which I definitely did not choose or
participate in the formation of, and furthermore seems to violate its own
rules.

LAURIE wrote: 

>I find it absolutely appalling that the Congress has the gall to make some
empty rhetoric about
>apologizing for one sort of slavery which me and my family never
participated in. 

Hmmmm!  While I find that I can agree with the rest of your post and with
the part of the above statement with respect to empty rhetoric, I find the
latter part of the statement very self centered and egotistical.  Supposedly
the U.S. government through its various legal bodies and agencies speaks on
behalf of the collective society past, present, and future and not for
individual persons, specific families, and/or particular private
corporations past, present, and/or future.  It is irrelevant if you or your
family ever participated personally or otherwise.  If it were the case that
they could only speak for or on the behalf of those who actually, directly,
or actively participated in past events, actions, policies, or practices,
then neither I or my family ever participated in the formulation and signing
of the Constitution so therefore we should not be bound by it or any of the
laws passed by legislators who we did not personally vote for as our
personal representatives or laws that we did not participate in the actual
formulation and passage.  This would reduce society down to a collection of
individuals without any overarching societal commitment or collective
identity.  This may be a sort of libertarian anarchist version of society;
but it is not the one we claim to operate under as a sovereign nation state.
Even in the state of nature, man always participated in some collectivity
even if it was merely a clan based tribal family and identified with that
collectivity, its values, norms, practices, and traditions. 

From: peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net
[mailto:peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] On Behalf Of E. Wayne
Johnson
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 11:59 AM
To: jencart13 at yahoo.com
Cc: Peace-discuss List
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] U.S. House Passes Resolution Apologizing for
Slavery

I find it absolutely appalling that the Congress has the gall to make some
empty rhetoric about
apologizing for one sort of slavery which me and my family never
participated in.  

At the same time no apology should be expected to come forth any time soon
for anything meaningful 
such as for continually imposing  on us the forced servitude of collectivism
(which is de facto slavery), 
for continually eroding our personal liberties,  
for trampling on the Constitution (our By-laws),
for ignoring the message and intent of the Declaration of Independence (our
Charter), 
for taking the fruits of our labour against our will, 
for coercing our children into military service for the purpose of
empire-building of by force of law or by force of deception,
for many other similar insults to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness too
numerous to mention, 

...and for making vacuous resolutions.

Jenifer Cartwright wrote: 

How 'bout apology w/ restitution? Yeah, that'll happen (ditto for Native
Americans).

 --Jenifer

--- On Sat, 8/2/08, E. Wayne Johnson  <mailto:ewj at pigs.ag> <ewj at pigs.ag>
wrote:

From: E. Wayne Johnson  <mailto:ewj at pigs.ag> <ewj at pigs.ag>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] U.S. House Passes Resolution Apologizing for
Slavery
To: "Walter Pituc"  <mailto:wpituc2 at gmail.com> <wpituc2 at gmail.com>
Cc: "Peace-discuss List"  <mailto:peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
<peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Date: Saturday, August 2, 2008, 4:13 AM

If they really are into apologies with repentance not just being apologists
then I have a fairly long grocery list I can dig out for 'em...

But somehow I don't think this rhetoric accounts for much of anything of
substance.

Walter Pituc wrote: 

The U.S. House of Representations passed a resolution to apologize for
slavery on 7/29/2008.

Wow, about time, eh? Now all we need is an apology for the genocide of
Native Americans.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93064166
 <http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93059465> 
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93059465

-Walter

  _____  

_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss

_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/archive/peace-discuss/attachments/20080802/4553c82d/attachment-0001.html