[Peace-discuss] Christians, war and torture

[John W.]

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Morton K. Brussel <brussel at illinois.edu>wrote:

Pertinent reply, Ricky, although my guess is that the results could well be
> true for non-whites as well.
>

Nah.  Most churchgoing blacks - as well as unchurched blacks, of course -
have experienced enough racial profiling and oppression in their lives to be
leary of tasers and other forms of what Ricky calls "pain compliance" by
authority figures.  And most of them can feel empathy for other non-whites
who are being similarly oppressed.  Black churches may not be DOING a whole
lot in terms of protesting American foreign policy, feeling perhaps that
there is enough injustice here at home to protest, but the results of a poll
conducted among American blacks would be significantly different than the
numbers cited in your article.



> What struck me is that people who profess religion claim they have special
> moral (god-given) authority and insight. This is just another example where
> it turns out to be illusory.
>

In some cases.  :-)  MY special God-given insight tells me that torture is
wrong.  :-)

John




> --Mort
>
> On Aug 2, 2009, at 10:56 AM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:
>
> Interesting poll results, Mort.  Thanks for posting it.  Disturbing.  But I
> have to say I'd read the results somewhat differently than this guy does -
> he may be bringing some baggage to the analysis, like frustrated with his
> coreligionists in particular.  I don't know.
>
> But the first thing I noticed was that the poll victims were all white.  It
> could just be that it's more a phenomenon of white culture, and that
> religion just isn't a factor.  Of course, since the poll doesn't include
> people who ain't (white, that is), it could be just Americans.  It does seem
> that 'we' are in a minority.  Witness the support for police tasers locally,
> for example, despite the fact that it is a torture device (pain compliance).
>
> This has been going on for some time in our culture.  I noticed it first
> (ok, I was naive before) several years ago when there was an actual national
> debate among intellectuals and other folks about the novel (at the time)
> practice of police inserting needles under the fingernails of e.g.
> nonviolent protesters, pepper-spray, and other pain-compliance methods used
> when mass arrests were being thwarted by means of the protesters handcuffing
> themselves together, etc.
>
> We who reject such brutality have along uphill climb.  In my opinion, our
> weakness is the level of organization of the other side.  Consequently there
> is, in general, only one effective response: organize our side (not just our
> friends).
>
> My 2c again.
> Ricky
>
> "Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn
>
> --- On *Sat, 8/1/09, Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net>
> Subject: [Peace-discuss] Christians, war and torture
> To: "Peace-discuss Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 2:34 PM
>
> Opening lines by by Catholic Ray McGovern:
> 'Christians' Wink at Torture
>
> by Ray McGovern
>
> Anyone harboring doubts that the institutional Church is riding shotgun for
> the system, even regarding heinous sin like torture, should be chastened by
> the results of a recent survey by the Pew Research Center.
>
> Who but the cowardly crew leading the "Christian" churches can be held
> responsible for the fact that many of their flock believe torture of
> suspected terrorists is "justified?"
>
> Those polled were white non-Hispanic Catholics, white Evangelicals, and
> white mainline Protestants. A majority (54 percent) of those who attend
> church regularly said torture could be "justified," while a majority of
> those not attending church regularly responded that torture was rarely or
> never justified.
>
> I am not a psychologist or sociologist. But I recall that one of the first
> things Hitler did on assuming power was to ensure there was a pastor in
> every Lutheran and Catholic parish in Germany. Why? Because he calculated,
> correctly, that this would be a force for stability for his regime. Thus
> began horrid chapter in the history of those who profess to be followers of
> Jesus of Nazareth but forget his repeated admonition, Do not be afraid.
>
> A mere seven decades after the utter failure of most church leaders in
> Germany, their current American counterparts have again yielded to fear, and
> have condoned evils like torture by their deafening silence.…
>
>
> More follows; see  http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/08/01-4
>
>
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