[Peace-discuss] Christians, war and torture

Tue Aug 4 16:44:47 CDT 2009

I can't say what the results for black church-goers would be (tho' I'd lay money they'd be less okay w/ torture), but the Pew results of the first study -- church-going whites vs non-church-going whites -- rings VERY true for me. (Uh, read the bible lately?? How 'bout all that gratuitous sex and violence!! How 'bout that jealous and vengeful God, etc??).
 --Jenifer

--- On Sun, 8/2/09, John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com> wrote:

From: John W. <jbw292002 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Christians, war and torture
To: "Morton K. Brussel" <brussel at illinois.edu>
Cc: "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 1:08 PM

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Morton K. Brussel <brussel at illinois.edu> wrote:

Pertinent reply, Ricky, although my guess is that the results could well be true for non-whites as well. 

Nah.  Most churchgoing blacks - as well as unchurched blacks, of course - have experienced enough racial profiling and oppression in their lives to be leary of tasers and other forms of what Ricky calls "pain compliance" by authority figures.  And most of them can feel empathy for other non-whites who are being similarly oppressed.  Black churches may not be DOING a whole lot in terms of protesting American foreign policy, feeling perhaps that there is enough injustice here at home to protest, but the results of a poll conducted among American blacks would be significantly different than the numbers cited in your article.

What struck me is that people who profess religion claim they have special moral (god-given) authority and insight. This is just another example where it turns out to be illusory.

In some cases.  :-)  MY special God-given insight tells me that torture is wrong.  :-)

John

--Mort

On Aug 2, 2009, at 10:56 AM, Ricky Baldwin wrote:

Interesting poll results, Mort.  Thanks for posting it.  Disturbing.  But I have to say I'd read the results somewhat differently than this guy does - he may be bringing some baggage to the analysis, like frustrated with his coreligionists in particular.  I don't know.

But the first thing I noticed was that the poll victims were all white.  It could just be that it's more a phenomenon of white culture, and that religion just isn't a factor.  Of course, since the poll doesn't include people who ain't (white, that is), it could be just Americans.  It does seem that 'we' are in a minority.  Witness the support for police tasers locally, for example, despite the fact that it is a torture device (pain compliance).

This has been going on for some time in our culture.  I noticed it first (ok, I was naive before) several years ago when there was an actual national debate among intellectuals and other folks about the novel (at the time) practice of police inserting needles under the fingernails of e.g. nonviolent protesters, pepper-spray, and other pain-compliance methods used when mass arrests were being thwarted by means of the protesters handcuffing themselves together, etc.

We who reject such brutality have along uphill climb.  In my opinion, our weakness is the level of organization of the other side.  Consequently there is, in general, only one effective response: organize our side (not just our friends).

My 2c again.
Ricky

"Speak your mind even if your voice shakes." - Maggie Kuhn

--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net> wrote:

From: Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net>
Subject: [Peace-discuss] Christians, war and torture
To: "Peace-discuss Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>
Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 2:34 PM

Opening lines by by Catholic Ray McGovern:

'Christians' Wink at Torture
by Ray McGovern

Anyone harboring doubts that the institutional Church is riding shotgun for the system, even regarding heinous sin like torture, should be chastened by the results of a recent survey by the Pew Research Center.
Who but the cowardly crew leading the "Christian" churches can be held responsible for the fact that many of their flock believe torture of suspected terrorists is "justified?"
Those polled were white non-Hispanic Catholics, white Evangelicals, and white mainline Protestants. A majority (54 percent) of those who attend church regularly said torture could be "justified," while a majority of those not attending church regularly responded that torture was rarely or never justified.
I am not a psychologist or sociologist. But I recall that one of the first things Hitler did on assuming power was to ensure there was a pastor in every Lutheran and Catholic parish in Germany. Why? Because he calculated, correctly, that this would be a force for stability for his regime. Thus began horrid chapter in the history of those who profess to be followers of Jesus of Nazareth but forget his repeated admonition, Do not be afraid.
A mere seven decades after the utter failure of most church leaders in Germany, their current American counterparts have again yielded to fear, and have condoned evils like torture by their deafening silence.…

More follows; see  http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/08/01-4
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
Peace-discuss mailing list
Peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
http://lists.chambana.net/cgi-bin/listinfo/peace-discuss

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/archive/peace-discuss/attachments/20090804/926cf9aa/attachment.html