[Peace-discuss] Corn Festival -- RE: Sweet Corn Fest Fri & Sat!

Sun Aug 29 21:14:32 CDT 2010

Laurie,

Quite remarkable these comments: 

> …one should be asking the question of  why the anti-war groups are any different or better than their opponents in both their educational practice and content.  Are not they also engaging in a form of brainwashing?  Isn't it just a case of my old man is tougher than your old man?  It appears to me that if one engages in the same sorts of brainwashing practices (e.g., educating) as one's opponents, then one has become the monster that one is fighting and is no better than one's opponent for all practical purposes (disregarding ethical and moral beliefs in the righteousness of one's content which the opposition also sees as being true of their position and content).

One can reasonably infer from these lines that information has no effectiveness in changing public opinion. However, history is replete with revolutions in thought and politics of one sort or another as people became aware of their plight through the arguments of others as well as through their own experience, and to call the supply of information involved in this process "brainwashing" seems abject.  Has the claim that the U.S. invaded Iraq because of its possession of WMD not been refuted and rejected by information a form of brainwashing? Has the claim that the U.S. was bringing democracy to Iraq and now Afghanistan not been gradually rejected by the facts reported of what is happening there? You seem to adhere basically to the notion that there is no truth in human affairs and that in any case knowing the truth cannot change minds; there are only opinions and ideologies.  A rather inflexible and dismal position I think. It is true that formal education has its propagandistic and nationalistic aspects, but that does not contradict the idea that education can be enlightening, that there is such a thing as an education that enriches and broadens the individual. 

 Have you personally never changed your opinions via increased information and study— "brainwashing" ? 

You seem to imply that there are no valid standards in choosing one argument against another, that all arguments are equivalent in their effectiveness to convince an audience, that all argumentation is "brainwashing". I cannot believe it, and neither do you, for you indeed write to enlighten your audience just so by argumentation. i.e., education. 

--mkb

On Aug 29, 2010, at 1:07 PM, Laurie Solomon wrote:

> Stuart,
> 
> That would be a legitimate question if all things were equal which they are not; and at one time, I might have agreed.  I have long ago given up on the efficacy or education alone as an effective tool (particularly in the case of its use by the underdog or minorities).  It takes much more than mere education or educating.
> 
> However, on another note, if it is true that we are all products of our education as you suggest - although I see us all as being products of a much broader and informal social process of socio-cultural socialization which takes place long before any formal education and when the young members of a society  cannot read, write, talk, or comprehend sophisticated media propaganda - formal education and mass media propaganda merely serve to reinforce the basic socio-cultural norms and values that we have been made to internalize as we are growing up, except possibly in the cases of immigrants to a society who may have internalized slightly different norms, values, and beliefs as to the proper ways to act and think. But assuming that we are all products of education and that anti-war groups have as much right to engage in educating as other groups, one should be asking the question of  why the anti-war groups are any different or better than their opponents in both their educational practice and content.  Are not they also engaging in a form of brainwashing?  Isn't it just a case of my old man is tougher than your old man?  It appears to me that if one engages in the same sorts of brainwashing practices (e.g., educating) as one's opponents, then one has become the monster that one is fighting and is no better than one's opponent for all practical purposes (disregarding ethical and moral beliefs in the righteousness of one's content which the opposition also sees as being true of their position and content).  In the words of Sancho Pancho in Don Quixote, "whether the stone hits the pitcher or the pitcher hits the stone, it is going to be bad for the pitcher."  Brainwashing is brainwashing regardless of the content; and uncritical acceptance of the content of any brainwashing that leads to the lack of questioning of one's own premises as well as those of others comprises the production of mental midgets and moral idiots in my book.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Stuart Levy" <slevy at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 2010 12:27 PM
> To: "Laurie Solomon" <ls1000 at live.com>
> Cc: "John W." <jbw292002 at gmail.com>; <peace-discuss at anti-war.net>; "Stuart Levy" <slevy at ncsa.uiuc.edu>; "Carl Estabrook AWARE" <galliher at uiuc.edu>; <davegreen48 at yahoo.com>; "Bill Strutz" <bill.strutz at gmail.com>; <rbkutz at gmail.com>; "Ron Szoke" <r-szoke at illinois.edu>; "MartyneConrad Wetzel" <mc-wetzel at hotmail.com>; <dharley at illinois.edu>; "Jenifer Cartwright" <jencart7 at yahoo.com>; "Karen Medina" <kmedina67 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] Corn Festival -- RE: Sweet Corn Fest Fri & Sat!
> 
>> On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 12:22:17PM -0500, Laurie Solomon wrote:
>>> Here, I guess we differ.  I do not think is as clear cut and easy a matter as
>>> brainwashing.  The mere fact that they are so easily brainwashed, so
>>> unquestioningly dogmatic and uncritical, and so inclined to come to the
>>> defense of the corporate ideology even when it is clearly against their
>>> immediate interests suggests to me that enlightenment of them would just be
>>> another form of brainwashing with a revised dogma.
>> 
>> Well, we're all products of our education, right?  Why shouldn't anti-war groups
>> participate in educating the population?
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