[Peace-discuss] The Pope...
C. G. Estabrook
galliher at illinois.edu
Tue Nov 23 15:24:25 CST 2010
Vatican: Everyone can use condoms to prevent HIV
By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press 11/23/10
VATICAN CITY -- Using a condom is a lesser evil than transmitting HIV to a
sexual partner --- even if that means a woman averts a possible pregnancy, the
Vatican said Tuesday...
Benedict received a copy of the book "Light of the World" during an audience
Tuesday with the author, Peter Seewald, who conducted several hour-long
interviews with the pontiff last summer.
"I hope that this book is useful for the faith of many people," Benedict said.
The pope's comments in the book implied that he was referring primarily to
homosexual sex, when condoms aren't being used as a form of contraception.
Questions arose immediately about the pope's intent, though, because the Italian
translation of the book used the feminine for prostitute, whereas the original
German used the masculine.
[Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico] Lombardi told reporters Tuesday that he
asked the pope whether he intended to refer only to male prostitutes. Benedict
replied that it really didn't matter, the important thing was the person in
question took into consideration the life of the other, Lombardi said.
"I personally asked the pope if there was a serious, important problem in the
choice of the masculine over the feminine," Lombardi said. "He told me 'no.' The
problem is this ... It's the first step of taking responsibility, of taking into
consideration the risk of the life of another with whom you have a relationship."
"This is if you're a man, a woman, or a transsexual. We're at the same point.
The point is it's a first step of taking responsibility, of avoiding passing a
grave risk onto another," Lombardi said...
In the book, the pope was not justifying or condoning gay sex, condoms as a
means of artificial contraception or heterosexual sex outside of a marriage. He
reaffirms the Vatican opposition to homosexual acts and artificial contraception
and reaffirms the inviolability of marriage between man and woman.
But by broadening the condom comments to also apply to women, the pope is saying
that condom use is a lesser evil than passing HIV onto a partner even when
pregnancy is possible.
"We're not just talking about an encounter between two men, which has little to
do with procreation. We're now introducing relationships that could lead to
childbirth," Martin said.
While the lesser evil concept has long been a tenet of moral theology, the
pope's comments mark the first time a pope had ever publicly applied the theory
to condom use as a way to fight HIV transmission. Individual bishops and
theologians have applied that theory...
On Sun Nov 21 16:22:35 CST 2010, Corey Mattson <coreymattson at gmail.com> wrote
I don't fancy myself an expert on Catholic doctrine. But from being raised
Catholic, and from my long exposure as a child to conservative Catholic
thought via my extended family, I was under the impression that the Church's
prohibition on condoms stemmed from their obstruction of the natural process
of procreation. I was thinking, in my first post, that the permissibility of
condom use for homosexual males could now be justified by the Pope since two
males cannot procreate. This seems straightforward. Otherwise why would the
Pope not say heterosexual couples can use condoms as well? Is this not what
explains the Pope's statements, the Church's position against artificially
impeding conception?
---Corey
On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 12:55 PM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu
<http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss>>wrote:
> / The text as published in L'Osservatore Romano (in Italian) says
> "una
/>/ prostituta," but the interview (and the book) are probably in German.
/>/
/>/ I must say though that that this detailed consideration of what the bishop
/>/ of
/>/ Rome says has in my experience been limited to theologians, and indeed only
/>/ some of them... But apparently the interpretation is not easy: e.g.,
/>/ Jenifer is
/>/ surely not correct when she says "he's protecting just the guys and the
/>/ gays."
/>/
/>/ ---- Original message ----
/>/ >Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 10:49:53 -0600
/>/ >From: Stuart Levy <slevy at ncsa.illinois.edu
<http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss>>
/>/ >Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] The Pope...
/>/ >To: Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
<http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss>>
/>/ >
/>/ >On Sun, Nov 21, 2010 at 08:28:28AM -0800, Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
/>/ >> Yep, he's protecting just the guys and the gays when it comes to HIV-
/>/ AIDS, continues to exclude heteros. He also sez gays should follow DADT if
/>/ they're already ordained, and find another career if they're not. My
/>/ personal
/>/ fave is his saying that when a pope is unable to function he should
/>/ "consider"
/>/ resigning (paraphrasing). I tho'd "Catholic" meant "universal",but seems it
/>/ really means "cover-up." More articles by googling pope condoms. --Jenifer
/>/ >
/>/ >The BBC last night noted that the Pope had said in
/>/ >Italian "una prostituta", a word used for both male and
/>/ >female prostitutes. The speaker suggested that it was a
/>/ >mistranslation to read that as referring to males only.
/>/ >
/>/ >
/>/ >> --- On Sat, 11/20/10, Corey Mattson <coreymattson at gmail.com
<http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss>>
/>/ wrote:
/>/ >>
/>/ >> From: Corey Mattson <coreymattson at gmail.com
<http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss>>
/>/ >> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] The Pope...
/>/ >> To: "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu
<http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss>>
/>/ >> Cc: "Peace-discuss" <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net
<http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss>>
/>/ >> Date: Saturday, November 20, 2010, 8:17 PM
/>/ >>
/>/ >> Carl - I think I found where you're quoting from and don't agree with
/>/ your interpretation of it. It says that the Pope has been criticized by
/>/ even
/>/ church officials on his view that monogamous couples should not use
/>/ condoms to avoid disease. It doesn't mention how many church officials.
/>/ Just
/>/ before this statement, the article says that the Pope did not mention
/>/ couples
/>/ where one spouse is infected, mentioning only the case of male prostitutes.
/>/ (BTW, I support any move toward condom use, but of course for everybody,
/>/ not just males and male prostitutes. Didn't want to give the wrong
/>/ impression.)
/>/ >>
/>/ >> Sent from my iPhone
/>/ >> On Nov 20, 2010, at 4:59 PM, "C. G. Estabrook" <galliher at illinois.edu
<http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss>>
/>/ wrote:
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >> As the article points out, church officials have accepted "condom
/>/ >> use for ... couples [with an HIV+ spouse] to protect the uninfected
/>/ >> spouse from transmission." The pope's remarks will reinforce that
/>/ >> opinion.
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >> On 11/20/10 4:40 PM, Corey Mattson wrote:
/>/ >>
/>/ >> Huh...Surprising. Like Carl implies, it looks like the Church
/>/ >> can permit condom use when it doesn't directly impede
/>/ >> procreation. So tell me if I got the Pope's view wrong: Condoms
/>/ >> used to stop diseases are fine, only when the sexual act in
/>/ >> which they're used cannot result in pregnancy. This is
/>/ >> surprising, since someone opposed to homosexuality could easily
/>/ >> argue that allowing for condom use among homosexual males is
/>/ >> also promoting sex that does not result in procreation. Like
/>/ >> everything coming from the Vatican, it seems a little
/>/ >> convoluted.
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >> Corey
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >> Sent from my iPhone
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >> On Nov 20, 2010, at 1:56 PM, "C. G. Estabrook"
/>/ <galliher at illinois.edu
<http://lists.chambana.net/mailman/listinfo/peace-discuss>>
/>/ >> wrote:
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >> ...was making the fairly obvious point that it's better
/>/ >> not to risk the spread of disease.
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >> His comment attracts notice only because earlier popes had
/>/ >> disapproved of condoms for birth control.
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >> I think it's fair to say that the pope doesn't approve of
/>/ >> homosexual acts among adult males.
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >> On 11/20/10 1:32 PM, Jenifer Cartwright wrote:
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >>
/>/ >> Omg, color me shocked reading the Pope's stance
/>/ >> on the use of condoms for male prostitutes until I
/>/ >> realized that once again, this benefits ONLY males
/>/ >> (double duty this time, ya might say). So the pope
/>/ >> is okay w/ homosexuality so long as it's limited
/>/ >> to ADULT males?? Any chance that the Christian
/>/ >> right and tea-baggers will follow suit, do ya
/>/ >> suppose??
/>/ >>
/>/ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101120/ap_on_re_eu/eu_pope_condoms
/>/ >> --Jenifer
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