[Peace-discuss] Fwd: Richard Dawkins Furious At Pope For TyingGodless To Nazis

[John W.]

May I suggest Francis Schaeffer and/or C.S. Lewis as sources for reading?



On Mon, Sep 20, 2010 at 2:10 PM, C. G. Estabrook <galliher at illinois.edu>wrote:



> Mort--
>
> [1] I take it that you're volunteering for the panel "Ditchkins and the
> Pope (and God)" that I'm putting together for News from Neptune on UPTV
> (date TBA).
>
> I envision four participants - I mean local participants (i.e., not
> Dawkins, Hitchens, Benedict, & God) - of which you and I are two, discussing
> the following four texts:
>
> --R. Dawkins, "The God Delusion";
>
> --C. Hitchens, "God is Not Great";
>
> --P. Benedict, "Caritas in veritate" (his economic manifesto - in English);
> and
>
> --T. Eagleton (standing in for God), "Reason, Faith, and Revolution:
> Reflections on the God Debate."
>
> Perhaps you can suggest other discussants, or they may volunteer
> themselves.
>
>
> [2] Far from being “a despicable outrage,” the paragraph from the pope that
> "set off Dawkins" contains the following true statements:
>
> "...a Nazi tyranny ... denied our common humanity to many, especially the
> Jews...; [and]
>
> "...Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love [and]
> opposed the Nazis ... paid for that opposition with their lives..."
>
> - and the following debatable one (true I think as the Marxists say "in the
> last instance"):
>
> "...the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads
> ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society..."
>
> But that last after all was what he was trying to convince people of.
> Let's discuss it.
>
> Regards, Carl
>
>
> On 9/19/10 11:25 PM, Morton K. Brussel wrote:
> > So what do you disagree with in Dawkins' reply? Arguments would be
> > more useful than sneers. Perhaps you should read his book(s) and doff
> > your parochial hat..
> >
> > His remarks were both apt and appreciated...
> >
> >
> > On Sep 19, 2010, at 9:44 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
> >
> >> If anyone took Dawkins seriously before this, I doubt they will
> >> now.
> >>
> >> For those who are still abject believers, I recommend Terry
> >> Eagleton, "Reason, Faith, and Revolution: Reflections on the God
> >> Debate" (Yale UP pbk, 2010).
> >>
> >> If I thought anyone took Ditchkins seriously, I'd propose a
> >> symposium or panel on the subject. I doubt I'd find many takers.
> >>
> >> Actually, I'd be willing to host it on my UPTV program, News from
> >> Neptune.
> >>
> >> But I don't think anyone's interested enough for that.
> >>
> >> ...
> >>>
> >>> Richard Dawkins Furious At Pope For Tying Godless To Nazis
> >>>
> >>> Posted in Liberaland by Alan • September 17, 2010,
> >>>
> >>> Pope Benedict’s speech to Queen Elizabeth in England praised how
> >>> Britain fought “Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from
> >>> society,” prompting one of the world’s best known atheists,
> >>> Richard Dawkins, to proclaim it “a despicable outrage.” What set
> >>> off Dawkins is this paragraph:
> >>>
> >>> “Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her
> >>> leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God
> >>> from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially
> >>> the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. I also recall the
> >>> regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke
> >>> the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition
> >>> with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the
> >>> atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget
> >>> how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life
> >>> leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and
> >>> thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny”
> >>> (Caritas in Veritate, 29).”
> >>>
> >>> Dawkins responds:
> >>>
> >>> Even if Hitler had been an atheist, his political philosophy was
> >>> not based upon atheism and had no connection with atheism. Hitler
> >>> was arguably (and by his own account) a Roman Catholic. In any
> >>> case he enjoyed the open support of many of the most senior
> >>> catholic clergy in Germany and the less demonstrative support of
> >>> Pope Pius XII. Even if Hitler had been an atheist (he certainly
> >>> was not), the rank and file Germans who carried out the attempted
> >>> extermination of the Jews were Christians, almost to a man:
> >>> either Catholic or Lutheran, primed to their anti-Semitism by
> >>> centuries of Catholic propaganda about ‘Christ-killers’ and by
> >>> Martin Luther’s own seething hatred of the Jews. To mention
> >>> Ratzinger’s membership of the Hitler Youth might be thought to be
> >>> fighting dirty, but my feeling is that the gloves are off after
> >>> this disgraceful paragraph by the pope.
> >>>
> >>> Dawkins is urging a letter-writing campaign to British media in
> >>> protest, adding:
> >>>
> >>> I am incandescent with rage at the sycophantic BBC coverage, and
> >>> the sight of British toadies bowing and scraping to this odious
> >>> man. I thought he was bad before. This puts the lid on it.
>
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