[Peace-discuss] [sf-core] Ron Paul, Electoral Politics, and the Workers' Movement

Wed Feb 29 09:27:44 CST 2012

The most peculiar part of John's argument was his starting point, that  
one could not at the same time support the building of a workers'  
movement in America and pull a lever in a voting booth for Ron Paul,  
the only candidate who opposes the murder and pandering to the rich  
that Obama & his Republican 'opponents' support.

But in second place in peculiarity came John's attack on Paul's  
critique of the Fed.

We now have an interesting account, by Matt Stoller, of the connection  
between Paul's anti-imperialism and his demand for an audit of the US  
central banking system. Stoller's article is not perhaps so clear as  
it could be, but it repays close reading:

<http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/12/matt-stoller-why-ron-paul-challenges-liberals.html 
 >.

--CGE

On Jan 24, 2012, at 5:55 PM, E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森 wrote:

> I finally got around to listening to it.
>
> Congrats to Dave Johnson for putting it together, and some
> kick-ass music too.
>
> Lots of misinformation generated by Mr. Reimann.  I am not sure why.
>
> Abortion seems to be the dividing issue for many.  The right of
> a woman to kill her baby.  It would make a lot more sense to just
> let the baby be born and see if she likes it or not, then let her  
> kill it
> if she wants.
>
> No more of this senseless bloodletting.
> Let's have a Reason to kill the child.
>
> Maybe if they dont reach a certain standard by
> the age of 12... Zap 'em.
>
> I am convinced that the reason that abortion is so popular in the USA
> is that it pre-emptively removes undesirables from the population.
> Human Weeds they call 'em.  Abortion is racism.
> Racism at its most deprived manifestation.
>
> Abortion is Power.  War is Power.
> Authoritarian government feeds on Power.
> Americans like a powerful government.
>
>
> Points of misinfo:
> 1.  Ron Paul would favour corporations over people.  There is  
> nothing in his
> expressed policy that would suggest that.
>
> 2.  In no case did Paul ever suggest letting people die if they have  
> no access to health care.
>
> 3.  Libertarian ideas are actually anti-pollution, because pollution  
> harms one's neighbor, and you
> can't do that.
>
> 4.  Reimann takes the matter of Anthropogenic Global Warming to a  
> ridiculous extreme.
> Certainly some of us are not convinced at all about it.  I am one of  
> those.
> Although I dont agree with Chomsky about the danger of AGW, I do  
> like many of
> Chomsky's other ideas.
>
> 5.  Ending the Fed or Auditing the Fed will empower private  
> banksters and cause
> massive deflation.  As if the banksters are not empowered now?  Carl  
> provided
> a great response on this one.
>
> I debated with Reimann too at one time.  He and I can agree on how  
> messed up things are.
> I think he can be so interested in having a contrary opinion that he  
> forgets about
> working together with others to change the world.  He's pretty hung  
> up on Hoover
> for Hoover to be so long dead.
>
> I kinda doubt that Hoover had much to do with the outcomes.
>
> *
>
> The major point that I want to make is that the current situation in  
> the US is unsustainable,
> and there is a very hard rain about to fall.
> Call it Karma if you like.
> Sowing and Reaping is about the same thing.
>
> O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be,
> that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
> Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth
> thy little ones against the stones.
>
> There might still be time to stop and apologize.
>
> It looks much to me like the situation of Judah before the captivity.
> The leaders got worse and worse and worse.
> It was a slow downward grind before the final collapses.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 01/24/12 8:59, Brussel Morton K. wrote:
>>
>> Most of us already know that Ron Paul is a reactionary on economic  
>> policies, essentially isolationist in foreign policy (although I'm  
>> not sure about how he would treat oil and resource extraction  
>> corporations, e.g., how to protect them for our national interest),  
>> and a "libertarian" on certain civil rights, (excepting women's  
>> choice issues)—i.e., let anyone do mostly what they want,  
>> discriminate, carry guns wherever, get rid of public education, any  
>> social or health safety net,  ….  On the other hand, It might not  
>> be a bad idea to advertise/promote his anti-war foreign policy  
>> statements vis-a vis Obama and the other Repubs in the interest of  
>> popular education, but how could anyone with a humane social  
>> concern domestically ever vote for him? The havoc and misery his  
>> domestic policies would entail is inestimable. As Carl's opponent,  
>> John Reimann, in Dave Johnson's program noted, a dying off (call it  
>> murder?) of large segments of our populations could be expected in  
>> such an advent. Like in Russia after the USSR was dissolved. If you  
>> look at the details, it is simply crazy.
>>
>> My impressions from that fascinating program.
>>
>> --mkb
>>
>>
>> On Jan 23, 2012, at 5:50 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>>
>>> And here's an account of what John was upset about: <http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/12/matt-stoller-why-ron-paul-challenges-liberals.html
>>> >.
>>>
>>> On Jan 21, 2012, at 7:43 PM, C. G. ESTABROOK wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > On Saturday 21 January, David Johnson, Bob Paleczny, Bill Gorrell,
>>> > and Tom Thomas hosted a debate - "Ron Paul, Electoral Politics,  
>>> and
>>> > the Workers' Movement" - between Carl Estabrook of News from  
>>> Neptune
>>> > and labor activist John Reimann on the Illinois World Labor Hour.
>>> >
>>> > Thanks to David who arranged it, and Bob, who made it available
>>> > online. The first hour of the show is at <http://radio4all.net/index.php/program/57180
>>> > > - the debate begins in the last third; the second hour,  
>>> containing
>>> > the majority of the debate, is at <http://radio4all.net/index.php/program/57182
>>> > >.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --CGE
>>> >
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