[Peace-discuss] More differential application of SYG

Thu Jul 18 16:17:50 UTC 2013

I believe that the view that you present is a very oversimplified one with respect to the role and power of juries in practice. Jurors are not instructed about the possibility of engaging in jury nullification nor encouraged to engage in jury nullification.  Most members of jury pools as well as those actually selected for juries either do not support jury nullification actions or are reluctant to engage in them even if they are aware that it is possible.  Just as many support policies like the Patriot Act and programs that have minimized – if not done away with – civil rights and privacy in favor of security and national defense, many would willingly accept – for whatever reason – changing the jury system if jury nullification became wide spread.  Thus, in practice, I am not very optimistic about the jury system being any sort of protection that can be counted on.

From: "E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森" 
Sent: July 18, 2013 10:11 AM
To: C. G. Estabrook 
Cc: Laurie Solomon ; Peace-discuss List ; ocCUpy 
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] More differential application of SYG

Klimmen und dalen.  

Art by Escher.  Concept by Penrose.

On 07/18/13 22:46, "E. Wayne Johnson 朱稳森" wrote: 
  The Jury is the last line of defence of the People against the State.
  The Jury can Nullify bad laws.

  In the present situation in the US, it should be clear to all that the State
  is one of the most effective tools of the 1%.

  The Jury is one of the few remaining ways in which the People, accused,
  can escape from the grasp of the State (and the 1%, who are the prime benefactors
  of the state).

  One can't say that Occupy! has gone home and hid because they all got tired.
  They went home because the 1%, particularly the banksters, doesnt like Occupy!,
  and used the authority of the State to clear Occupy! out.

  The 1%, because some of Occupy! members really do love Big Sibling,
  have also been able to co-opt Occupy! into support of policies that
  are either neutral, relatively harmless, or beneficial to the 1%.

  Far better that Occupy! and the co-opted Left wear themselves out
  going round and round on an Penrose-Escher staircase than to 
  actually go after the man behind the curtain, get him by the toe,
  and make him holler.

  On 07/18/13 22:15, C. G. Estabrook wrote: 
'This' refers to the jury system.

On Jul 18, 2013, at 12:23 AM, Laurie Solomon mailto:ls1000 at live.com wrote:

    The point is almost a truism and the same can be said for a non-jury system although the benefits may not always be identical; but I do fail to see why one has to invoke or quote William Kunstler to make the point.  His statement make the point in a highly obtuse way when just saying "that the jury system retains values that occasionally benefit even enemies of the state" is a much more pointed and clearer articulation of the point.

As for your statement, "For an account of how this and other hard-won peoples' victories are being destroyed in the 21st c. by the minions of the 1%, see Peter Linebaugh, "The Magna Carta Manifesto: Liberties and Commons for All" (Cal UP 2008),"  I have no idea what the reference of the "this" in "how this and other hard-won peoples' victories...." is.  Does it refer to "the jury system," "the retained values," "the occasional benefits it furnishes to even enemies of the state," all of the above, or some combination of the above?  Or are you saying that this publication gives an account of how " the jury system retains values that occasionally benefit even enemies of the state" is a hard won people's victory which is being destroyed by the minions of the 1%.

-----Original Message----- From: C. G. Estabrook
Sent: July 17, 2013 9:22 PM
To: Laurie Solomon
Cc: Peace-discuss List ; ocCUpy
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] More differential application of SYG

The point is that the jury system retains values that occasionally benefit even enemies of the state.

For an account of how this and other hard-won peoples' victories are being destroyed in the 21st c. by the minions of the 1%, see Peter Linebaugh, "The Magna Carta Manifesto: Liberties and Commons for All" (Cal UP 2008).

And in this campaign Neoliberalism seems sometimes to be aided by well-meaning Liberals.

On Jul 17, 2013, at 11:33 AM, Laurie Solomon mailto:ls1000 at live.com wrote:

    I find it interesting, telling, and disappointing that you feel little or no restraint in falling back on the use of racist terms, such as”Chink,” and terms colored by a biased and emotion-invoking spin, e.g., the “injustice” system when you could just as easily engaged in a rational civil discussion without having employing those tactics.   I also find that many of your posts of recent on this and other topics have tended to become very disjointed and elliptical, making them hard to follow and understand.  I attribute some of this to your use of your iPhone and in part to your attempt to multi-task in which you are giving little attention to any of the tasks you are performing but feel compelled to respond even if you cannot give the time to any detail.

While I am not a big fan of CGE, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt here and assume that he was not focusing on invoking William Kunstler as much as invoking the Counterpunch article that he supplied a link to which does invoke Kunstler’s remark as an occasion for articulating the points of the article.  Personally, I fail to see what Kunstler’s comments or positions (actual or presumptively attributed to him) on the jury system or ALEC orchestrated reforms have to do with anything.  To do what a lot of people – including myself – seem to be doing these days, I will ask a counterfactual question:  What if Kunstler has said that he had no opposition to  and even supported the ALEC orchestration of reforms of the judicial system and SYG; how would that change anything including your position?  I would suggest that it would not change anything and even suggest that the cognitive dissonance that this would create would result in his comments being dismissed 

as irrelevant, senile, or misinformed.  It is for that reason that I think invoking Kunstler or his comments is a distracting irrelevancy and totally unnecessary.

From: Paul Mueth
Sent: July 17, 2013 6:15 AM
To: Peace-discuss List
Cc: ocCUpy
Subject: [Peace-discuss] More differential application of SYG

The injustice system is rigged, another case in point

http://mobile.thegrio.com/thegrio/#!/entry/71yearold-black-man-found-guilty-of-manslaughter-jury-rejects-stand,5124f9c5d7fc7b56703b5d2f

The Alternet article I circulated at the beginning of this string has the stats on how the Florida SYG is applied depending on the race of the stander.

William Kunstler invoked by CGE on the jury system would be fundamentally
opposed, I'm sure, to the ALEC orchestrated "reforms" of the judicial system, of which SYG is only one. And I guess perhaps the most deadly, at least in terms of individuals.

(Their tort reforms effectively releasing big Pharma further from liability could possibly cause more damage in the long run, societally. . . )

Sent from my iPhone 3GS, It doesn't chat!
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