[Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] [sf-core] Re: AMMONS vs. ROSENBERG Debate Results
David Johnson
davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net
Thu Feb 13 14:25:28 UTC 2014
Karen and Ricky,
You both make excellent points and arguements that I agree with.
Ricky your concise analysis of the dynamics of this 103rd Illinois State Rep race was " spot on ".
Even if I didn't know Carol and what she has done over the last 10-years in C-U, I would vote for her, if for no other reason, because of the tremendous effort being made by the Madigan controlled State Democratic party and other corporate special interests to prevent Carol from being elected.
At the same time, I agree with Karen that we shouldn't attack Carl for raising the questions he has. After all, its not like we haven't been betrayed time and time again by the neo-liberal corporate controlled democratic party.
Just my 2-cents worth.
David Johnson
----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Aram
To: Ricky Baldwin ; Jenifer Cartwright ; Brussel Morton K. ; C. G. Estabrook
Cc: Barrett, James R ; Peace-discuss ; sf-core ; occupycu at lists.chambana.net
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2014 5:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [OccupyCU] [sf-core] Re: AMMONS vs. ROSENBERG Debate Results
Ricky
Good, you have pointed out the many reasons why I support her. I just don't understand why people were so critical of Carl, assuming he was criticizing her, even to the point of attacking him personally, simply because he was asking a question related to her policy on corporate tax zones.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my email, I was referring to Obama's charisma. My response was constructed and sent before seeing Carl's more recent comments related to the issue, making his concerns and intentions clear. Thus its now a moot point.
> From: rbaldwin at seiu73.org
> To: karenaram at hotmail.com; jencart13 at yahoo.com; mkbrussel at comcast.net; carl at newsfromneptune.com
> CC: jrbarret at uiuc.edu; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; sf-core at yahoogroups.com; occupycu at lists.chambana.net
> Subject: RE: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] [sf-core] Re: AMMONS vs. ROSENBERG Debate Results
> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 22:11:22 +0000
>
> This is interesting. In fact, no one at all is saying that Carol Ammons should be supported because of her charisma. She has been very active locally for years on issues that we care about -- the environment (e.g. Fifth & Hill neighborhood toxic dump), criminal justice (supported civilian police review boards, opposed police getting Tasers, opposed new jail construction, supported a study on racial profiling in Urbana - which apparently turned the Mayor against her), labor (supported and picketed with GEO and SEIU during both strikes), and so on.
>
> She is running against a corporate Democrat who supports a cut in corporate taxes and is supported by House Speaker Madigan, widely viewed as having controlled Naomi Jakobsson for her tenure in office, and who has never supported local labor struggles openly until now and has done nothing locally in any environmental controversy.
>
> Their Republican opponent seems like a nice person but raises zero ideas and runs a fluff campaign.
>
> The choice is actually pretty stark.
>
>
> Ricky
> (also low charisma)
>
> ________________________________
> From: OccupyCU [occupycu-bounces at lists.chambana.net] on behalf of Karen Aram [karenaram at hotmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 9:58 AM
> To: Jenifer Cartwright; Brussel Morton K.; C. G. Estabrook
> Cc: Barrett, James R; Peace-discuss; sf-core; occupycu at lists.chambana.net
> Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] [Peace-discuss] [sf-core] Re: AMMONS vs. ROSENBERG Debate Results
>
> Excuse my ignorance of local affairs please, but as someone who supports Carol Ammons, given her pro-labor, pro-choice, etc. platform, I am a bit perplexed at the personal attacks on Carl for asking a question related to "enterprise and/or technology zones". I am attempting to understand this issue and how it relates to taxation and use of public funds in support of corporations. However, its difficult given the accusations of racism, etc., for simply asking the question and pointing out that some of us believed in our current President because he supported anti-war, and appeared to support the poor etc. Carls point should be taken as a lesson, in that perhaps we were blinded by Obama being the first African American to have a chance at holding such a powerful position, assuming he would be as we imagined, only to be sadly disappointed that he is not MLK. Perhaps if we had looked closer at his policies related to issues and not been dazzled by his charm and charisma we might have supported someone who better represented our views, if the Party were to allow it.
> Public figures policy stands need to be examined thoroughly.
>
> ________________________________
> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2014 00:22:27 -0800
> From: jencart13 at yahoo.com
> To: mkbrussel at comcast.net; carl at newsfromneptune.com
> CC: jrbarret at uiuc.edu; peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net; sf-core at yahoogroups.com; occupycu at lists.chambana.net
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [sf-core] Re: [OccupyCU] AMMONS vs. ROSENBERG Debate Results
>
> The principal objector's thinking about women's issues is well known, so regardless of the excuses he's come up with, I'm guessing the real reason is that Carol Ammons supports Planned Parenthood.
> ________________________________
> From: Brussel Morton K. <mkbrussel at comcast.net>
> To: C. G. Estabrook <carl at newsfromneptune.com>
> Cc: "Barrett, James R" <jrbarret at uiuc.edu>; Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net>; sf-core <sf-core at yahoogroups.com>; "occupycu at lists.chambana.net" <occupycu at lists.chambana.net>
> Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2014 3:01 PM
> Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] [sf-core] Re: [OccupyCU] AMMONS vs. ROSENBERG Debate Results
>
> I find it curious that you appear to be putting all " progressive, ostentatiously pro-labor viable Black candidate(s)" into the same bag (as M. Obama). What do you have against Carol Ammons (as against her opponents) aside from the fact that she has the same color as Obama (which could mislead us in our choice).
>
> --mkb
>
> On Feb 6, 2014, at 12:33 PM, C. G. Estabrook wrote:
>
> > The national Democrats offered "a progressive, ostentatiously pro-labor viable Black candidate who is willing to speak in Terms of class inequality" for president, and his mendacity got us an administration of assassination and austerity.
> >
> > Doesn't that suggest that we should ask what "progressive, ostentatiously pro-labor viable Black candidate[s]" on the local level actually propose, rather than voting for them out of debased identity politics?
> >
> > --CGE
> >
> > On Feb 6, 2014, at 12:22 PM, Barrett, James R <jrbarret at uiuc.edu<mailto:jrbarret at uiuc.edu>> wrote:
> >
> >> Very discouraging. I doubt anyone agrees with all of her
> >> views, but we have a progressive, ostentatiously
> >> pro-labor viable Black candidate who is willing to speak in
> >> Terms of class inequality and we're supposed
> >> to invest our limited time into attacking her? That's sick.
> >>
> >> Jim Barrett
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: sf-core at yahoogroups.com<mailto:sf-core at yahoogroups.com> [sf-core at yahoogroups.com<mailto:sf-core at yahoogroups.com>] on behalf of C. G. Estabrook [carl at newsfromneptune.com<mailto:carl at newsfromneptune.com>]
> >> Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 9:39 AM
> >> To: David Johnson
> >> Cc: sf-core; Peace-discuss; occupycu at lists.chambana.net<mailto:occupycu at lists.chambana.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [sf-core] Re: [OccupyCU] AMMONS vs. ROSENBERG Debate Results [1 Attachment]
> >>
> >> [Attachment(s) from C. G. Estabrook included below]
> >>
> >> David--
> >>
> >> As you know, "enterprise zones" are a neoliberal technique, originally proposed by 'supply-side' economists. Their current proponents acknowledge successful criticism by looking for newer, more marketable names - e.g., "technology zones."
> >>
> >> It's not clear that states and municipalities should be competing to give breaks to corporate entities on the threat that they might move away and take jobs - or on the promise to bring them. See e.g., Durl Kruse' letter (attached) regarding the Champaign City Council's "Tax Increment Financing District" that will give Kraft "a $3.6 million tax subsidy to build a new warehouse."
> >>
> >> Durl writes, "One must wonder if this TIF project represents the flexing of corporate muscle by threatening the community 'not to build if not approved,' and when given the opportunity, to directly manipulate TIF laws for corporate gain at taxpayers' expense."
> >>
> >> Clearly, the supposed benefits of such a program should generalize. You can make an argument for "an across the board corporate tax cut" to promote trade and employment. Such business taxes should be replaced with taxes on concentrated wealth and speculation - i.e., taxes on investable assets, and Tobin taxes.
> >>
> >> Given the entrenched (non-democratic) political power of capital, wealth taxes and Tobin taxes are not on the horizon in Illinois, unfortunately. (The Democrats should of course be opposed on this point.) The best we can do in the near future seems to be a progressive income tax and social subsidies, including perhaps the state single-payer system that you've been working for.
> >>
> >> Regards, CGE
> >>
> >> On Feb 5, 2014, at 10:21 PM, David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net<mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>> wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> The differnce is that Rosenberg supports an across the board corporate tax cut with no conditions.
> >>>
> >>> Carol Ammons " Technology Zone Program " gives a tax break to a company ONLY if a company ;
> >>>
> >>> 1) increases employment by the greater of 10 % of its current workforce or a minimum of 3 new full-time employees
> >>>
> >>> 2) Pays wages of 20 % or more above the median income of Champaign County
> >>>
> >>> 3) Employ a minimum of 5 full-time employees
> >>>
> >>> Not to mention that Rosenberg is an attorney who works for Carle Clinic and takes poor and elderly people to court for not paying hospital bills.
> >>>
> >>> Carol has been a community activist for over a decade, opposing the : Police, States Attorney and other local officials / vested interests at times when necessary in the pursuit of social justice.
> >>>
> >>> Again, the choice is clear to me who would be the better advocate for Working people in the 103rd District
> >>>
> >>> David Johnson
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: C. G. Estabrook
> >>> To: David Johnson
> >>> Cc: <"Undisclosed-Recipient:;"@mail0.frost.chambana.net>
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 9:29 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [OccupyCU] AMMONS vs. ROSENBERG Debate Results
> >>>
> >>> Didn't Carol support 'enterprise zones' (under another name), which are even more substantial corporate tax cats - for favored corporations?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Feb 5, 2014, at 9:24 PM, David Johnson <davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net<mailto:davidjohnson1451 at comcast.net>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I just returned from the Ammons vs. Rosenberg debate, for the Illinois 103rd State Rep Democratic Primary race.
> >>>>
> >>>> The major differences between the two candidates were ;
> >>>>
> >>>> Rosenberg SUPPORTS cutting corporate taxes and OPPOSES the $ 15.00 per hour minimum wage.
> >>>>
> >>>> Carol Ammons in contrast OPPOSES cutting corporate taxes and SUPPORTS the $ 15.00 per hour minimum wage.
> >>>>
> >>>> Rosenberg also stated that Carol Ammons experience in local government on the County Board and the Urbana City Council does NOT make her more qualified than him in terms of experience.
> >>>> He stated that ;
> >>>> " Springfield is a different BEAST than local government and I am more qualified to deal with that."
> >>>>
> >>>> The difference could not be any clearer to me.
> >>>>
> >>>> What was also interesting was that I submitted TWO questions for the candidates, first via e-mail several days before the debate and early on at the debate.
> >>>> Neither question was asked !
> >>>>
> >>>> The questions were ;
> >>>>
> >>>> 1) Would you be willing to co-sponsor the current House Bill to enact a universal health care system in Illinois ( H.B. 942 ).
> >>>>
> >>>> and
> >>>>
> >>>> 2) Would you co-sponsor House Bill H.B. 3754 that would dissolve the Illinois Charter School Commision
> >>>>
> >>>> I wonder why the Moderators avoided asking these questions ?
> >>>>
> >>>> David Johnson
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
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