[Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal

Fri Jul 13 00:05:52 UTC 2018

When the anti-war movement fractures itself over which of the two main political parties are supposedly less war-like, I am reminded of mice deciding which mousetrap has the better cheese, while the cat looks smugly on from above, ready to pounce. 
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------ Original message------From: Robert Naiman via Peace-discussDate: Thu, Jul 12, 2018 6:31 PMTo: C G Estabrook;Cc: Peace-discuss List;Subject:Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal
The point of the enterprise isn't to make anyone like the United States. More people can hate the United States, it's no skin off my nose. 
The point is to save the lives of innocent human beings. Peace people are supposed to care about that. 

Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:47 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
I’lll believe it when I see it - or when the USG reverses its war-making and -mongering.
Anything up to that is posturing and propaganda. “The US seeks peace, but, unfortunately…"

On Jul 12, 2018, at 4:42 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> wrote:
Soon I expect an initiative from the Congressional Progressive Caucus to try to end the Saudi war in Yemen, invoking the War Powers Resolution to try to force a House floor vote on the unconstitutional and unauthorized war.  
Then the key question will be: whether the House leadership can be forced to allow a vote. 
The battle will be Democrat against Democrat, and Republican against Republican. It will be Progressive Caucus and Liberty Caucus against the House Republican leadership and whichever Democrats collaborate with the House Republican leadership. 
Here's a foreshadow from Adam Smith:
https://twitter.com/HASCDemocrats/status/1017477541031014401

House Armed Services‏Verified account @HASCDemocratsFollowFollow @HASCDemocratsMore. at RepAdamSmith: There is a terrible humanitarian crisis occurring. I am working with @RepRoKhanna on a bill to stop us from blindly supporting Saudi Arabia’s actions in #Yemen.1:35 PM - 12 Jul 2018
You can encourage support of this effort here:
34 Reps. Threatened War Powers to Stop Hodeida Assault. Press Them to Follow Through
https://www.change.org/p/34-reps-threatened-war-powers-to-stop-hodeida-assault-press-them-to-follow-through

Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
When, in our lifetimes, have the USG - and the Democrat party - not wanted to commit a horrible crime?
Identifying nice Democrats has not been a way to meliorate those crimes. It’s rather a mode of collaboration. 

On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:33 PM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
Are you kidding me? Of course not. Who claimed that it was?
It's argument that if two groups of people are fighting, and one side wants to commit a horrible crime, and the other side doesn't, you should support the side that doesn't want to commit the horrible crime. You don't have to marry them. You just have to help them win, to the extent that you are able. 

Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 4:24 PM, Carl G. Estabrook via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
Is that a reason to support Israel’s killing now?

Sent from my iPhone
On Jul 12, 2018, at 3:09 PM, Robert Naiman <naiman at justforeignpolicy.org> wrote:

When I was in high school, I read an interview with a Russian Jew who had lived through the Russian Civil War. He was asked why so many Russian Jews had supported the Communists. He said: "There were two groups of people with guns. One group wanted to kill Jews. The other didn't. It wasn't hard to choose sides." 
Robert Naiman
Policy Director
Just Foreign Policy
www.justforeignpolicy.org
naiman at justforeignpolicy.org
(202) 448-2898 x1

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Estabrook, Carl G via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

There were people in the American government that argued that attacking Iraq in 2003 was not the best way to control the Mideast. We could oppose the attack without supporting them
 or their vicious politics.

From: Peace-discuss [peace-discuss-bounces at lists.chambana.net] on behalf of Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss [peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net]

Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 2:32 PM

To: C G Estabrook

Cc: Peace-discuss List

Subject: Re: [Peace-discuss] debate in Iran about prospects of anti-Iran Trump-Russia deal

You're now making the point that I was making from the beginning. Anybody who expects that Russia will take its interests as they perceive them into account less than other countries do is likely to be disappointed. Accepting this reality doesn't
 require being particularly cynical about the motivations of the Russian government. It just means accepting that the Russian government is like other governments.

This doesn't mean that one has to accept a "vulgar Marxist" view that what governments will do is always reducible to or understandable by reference to crude self-interest. Competing factions articulate different arguments for national self-interest, and
 these arguments can have very different moral consequences, and some of the people supporting the arguments care about the moral consequences. 

So, for example, right now there are people in Washington who are arguing that continuing to support the Saudi-UAE assault on Yemen is not in the interest of the U.S., and the U.S. should instead pressure Saudi-UAE to stop the assault on Hodeida and agree
 to the UN peace deal. People who care about moral consequences want that argument to win, even if they themselves would be happy to see the U.S. empire crash and burn. 

Robert Naiman

Policy Director

Just Foreign Policy

www.justforeignpolicy.org

naiman at justforeignpolicy.org

(202) 448-2898 x1

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, C G Estabrook via Peace-discuss
<peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

Wouldn’t we be shocked if someone said, “Americans always lean toward the side that serves their interests”?

In our case the interests are those of dominant social groups in this country - and in an age of neoliberalism, run counter to those of the majority, here and abroad.

On Jul 12, 2018, at 10:52 AM, Robert Naiman via Peace-discuss <peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:

 "Russians
 always lean toward the side that serves their interests.”

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