[Peace] [Peace-discuss] What we're up against

[John W.]

On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 5:24 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
wrote:

Would this strike you as a reasonable defense of WWII in Europe?
>
> “…German war-making antedates Hitler, and Roosevelt, and indeed the birth
> of modern Germany. War-making is a permanent and immutable characteristic
> of human nature.  German imperialism is a bit more recent, but not much.
> It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes every
> militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even
> earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.”
>
> My question is not rhetorical. See Nicholson Baker, "Human Smoke: The
> Beginnings of World War II, the End of Civilization” (2008).
>
> —CGE
>

There's rarely a defense for war, and never for imperialism.  But German
imperialism and the notion that Germans were somehow a superior "race"
certainly predated Hitler.  He didn't invent it; he merely carried it a
step further.

What has been much more surprising is how Germany has reinvented itself in
such a progressive way since World War II.  But don't hold your breath.
Neo-Nazism lurks just barely beneath the surface in Germany, just as it
does in America.  The pendulum will swing again, and man's brute nature
will reassert itself.





> On Dec 16, 2017, at 5:08 PM, John W. via Peace-discuss <
> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 4:02 PM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> How should the good fight go on? Does Hedges tell us? It’s clear that
>> deploring Trump’s character  is not the way.
>>
>> The US political establishment - who have provided us with 40 years of
>> war and accelerating inequality, in both Republican and Democrat
>> administrations - are using Trump (the weakest president since Coolidge) as
>> a boogeyman to insure the maintenance of those policies.
>>
>> He was elected in part because of his occasional criticism of them, and
>> that was enough to terrify the neocons.
>>
>> Johnstone, although perhaps not writing in a Ciceronian style, points
>> that out clearly.
>>
>> Anti-Trumpism is being used "as a deliberate ploy to manipulate what
>> remains of the American political left into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war
>> ‘center’ …  the Democratic party is able to herd the political left into
>> supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and agendas…"
>>
>> That’s what must be exposed, and opposed. Trump is not the problem: US
>> war-making is. —CGE
>>
>
>
> Except that U.S. war-making antedates tRump, and Coolidge, and indeed the
> birth of the Republic.  :-/  War-making is a permanent and immutable
> characteristic of human nature.  U.S. imperialism is a bit more recent, but
> not much.  It's a continuum.  And imperialism in general characterizes
> every militarily strong civilization since there were nation-states.  Even
> earlier, if you include the Roman Empire, Ghengis Khan, etc.
>
>
>
>
>
>> > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:20 PM, Brussel, Morton K via Peace-discuss <
>> peace-discuss at lists.chambana.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > Upon reading this, carefully, I find it overwrought, hyperbolic, to the
>> point of being deceptive. Not that I have any wish to defend the policies
>> rendered by the Dems and friends on matters of war and peace, and more
>> generally the effects of the U.S.(struggles for world hegemony) upon the
>> rest of the world. It is all frighteningly abysmal. But the good fight must
>> go on, as Cris Hedges emphasized at the end of his remarkable, if overlong,
>> address to a Sanctuary audience. .
>> >
>> > —mkb
>> >
>> >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 11:38 AM, C G Estabrook <cgestabrook at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Anti-Trumpism Is Anti-Progressivism In Disguise
>> >>
>> >> The usual Clintonite pundits are crowing triumphantly about their
>> narrow, expensive victory over a spectacularly awful candidate in Alabama
>> yesterday, effectively claiming that this vindicates the way they’ve been
>> ignoring everyone to the left of John McCain since the election. I don’t
>> care about the Democratic party enough to write an entire article about how
>> this is yet another sign that its leadership has no intention of ever
>> moving even a single inch to the left in any way that matters, but I’d like
>> to share a few thoughts on the general big-picture trend in US politics
>> that this is a part of.
>> >>
>> >> When I say that anti-Trumpism is anti-progressivism in disguise, I
>> don’t mean to suggest that Trump is progressive in any way, shape or form,
>> nor do I mean to suggest that his administration isn’t advancing many
>> legitimately toxic policies which must be ferociously opposed. By
>> anti-Trumpism I mean the blinkered, frenzied “ZOMG LITERALLY HITLER” cult
>> which prioritizes impeachment of the sitting president above all else and
>> at any cost, and by anti-progressivism I mean it’s being used as a
>> deliberate ploy to manipulate what remains of the American political left
>> into the pro-neoliberalism, pro-war “center”.
>> >>
>> >> The campaign against Roy Moore was simply a microcosm of this general
>> “vote for us because we’re not that scary boogieman” good cop/bad cop game
>> both parties have been extorting the American public with for generations.
>> Like Trump, Moore was a scandal-saturated slob who represented some of the
>> most pernicious aspects of the GOP, and, though his opponent Doug Jones
>> campaigned as a centrist who would work with Republicans, he was still
>> viewed as better than Moore by enough people to win an election. This
>> extortion scheme forced the people of Alabama to choose between a senator
>> who would help move US politics far to the right and someone who would help
>> move US politics only somewhat to the right, and they voted in
>> self-defense, not because they liked Jones but because they feared Moore.
>> >>
>> >> This is a perfect illustration of how anti-Trumpism is being used on a
>> much larger scale. By constantly masturbating the absurd narrative that
>> Donald Trump is simultaneously (A) crazy, (B) stupid, (C) a secret Nazi and
>> (D) a treasonous Kremlin agent, the Democratic party is able to herd the
>> political left into supporting pro-war, pro-oligarchy candidates and
>> agendas. In the same way they used “But Roy Moore!” to win support for an
>> imperialist corporate whore, they will use “But Trump!” to win support for
>> their neoliberal neoconservative extortion scheme at every turn.
>> >>
>> >> Whenever I point this out I get a bunch of Democratic party loyalists
>> telling me “We can walk and chew gum at the same time! We can work to
>> impeach Trump while advancing progressive causes!” No you can’t. You can’t
>> and you don’t. When it came time to fight the DNC’s illicit,
>> charter-violating installation of Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders they
>> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to support a third
>> party they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When it came time to demand
>> a massive overhaul of the DNC they “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. When
>> it came time to demand a full investigation and restitution for the
>> Democratic party’s misdeeds and manipulations exposed by WikiLeaks they
>> “But Trump!”ed you into conforming. Every meaningful movement toward
>> economic justice has been muted and marginalized since the election by “But
>> Trump! But Trump! But Trump!” while the Republicans march the country
>> further into corporatist oligarchy, and this scheme will continue for as
>> long as it continues to work.
>> >>
>> >> As long as the American left allows fear of Trump to determine the way
>> it thinks and votes, the American left will be completely neutered. When
>> this boogieman is out of office, they’ll simply elevate another one just
>> like they did with Trump, probably one that’s even scarier since the last
>> one was so effective. If they can’t beat that one they’ll use him to herd
>> the left into the center, just like they’re doing now.
>> >>
>> >> There’s a pipe dream in the DemEnter school of thought that
>> progressives will be able to stage a takeover of the Democratic party
>> beginning in 2018, but as long as the cult of anti-Trumpism, impeachment
>> and Russiagate continues to dominate the way Democrats think and vote, this
>> simply will not happen. 2018 will not be a year in which Berniecrats shore
>> up influence over the Democratic party, it will be a year in which
>> Democrats are “But Trump!”ed into supporting the so-called “center”, which
>> only gets to call itself that because its massive corporate funds and media
>> influence have enabled it to become a mainstream force.
>> >>
>> >> You cannot have your impeachment/Russiagate crusade and also move US
>> politics to the left, progressives. You cannot. What you are trying to do
>> isn’t like walking and chewing gum at the same time, it’s like trying to
>> walk in one direction while taking a jet plane in the other direction at
>> the same time. Keep supporting the impeachment/Russiagate narrative and
>> you’re just handing the ranchers an easy day’s work as you march yourselves
>> all straight into the slaughterhouse. They will “But Trump!” you into
>> conformity until you stop letting fear and corporate narratives rule your
>> minds and start pushing for what you truly want for yourselves instead.
>> >>
>> >> --– Caitlin Johnstone <medium.com>
>>
>
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